Thanks MLU/Hanno-Soldier Identified!!

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

I was just looking at the D-Day dodger's photo (the old man-Lance Corporal William James Shipton (Jimmie) from Kingston,Ontario) in the book "A Liberation Album"on page 88-Canadians in The Netherlands 1944-45 where he's sitting on a motorcycle with a white truce flag on the right handlebar & it just dawned on me!!The unit # on both the Harley he's sitting on & the 1st CMP C-60 reads 182.Is there any affisienado unit markings expert out there who can narrow this number down & who they were attached to??All I know is he"s with the 1st Div Royal Caanadian Army Service Corp during the truce to feed starving civilians at the end of the war.And no,he's not a military policeman,just an outrider for his convoy of CMP's feeding the starving,God ,he looks like me!!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Garry,

The only "182" I've found so far is for the 3rd Medium Regiment, RCA, attached to 1st Canadian Army.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

G'wan, Garry, post it again so we can all meet the gent again!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Garry;

Is the picture attached the one your talking about? I think we went through this one before, either here or on the old MLU Forum.

If I'm not mistaken, you had said that your Father was RCASC with the 1st Div. That being the case and the operation in question being conducted by 1st Corps in the Western Netherlands, I'd have to say that the vehicles are either from 1st Med Regt, RCA (1st Cdn AGRA) or from 1st Medium Regiment Platoon, RCASC.

To the best of my knowledge, 2nd Cdn AGRA used the Unit Serial Block (173-180) normally allotted to the first Army Group Royal Artillery and when 1st Cdn AGRA arrived in NWE (approx Mar 45) they were alotted the second Unit Serial Block (181-187).

If 1st Corps had not gone to Italy and First Canadian Army had gone into NWE complete, then the 182 Serial would be for 3rd Med Regt (3rd Med Regt Platoon RCASC), but when 1st Cdn AGRA left for Italy, 2nd Cdn AGRA was allotted the Unit Serial Block for the first Army Group Royal Artillery (173-180) since they were then the only AGRA in First Canadian Army.

Anyways, hope this helps.

Cheers

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Thanks Mark & Geoff.I'll note the info below the photo in the book
Garry

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

The vehicles probably WERE provided courtesy of 3rd Medium... at the time this truce was in effect, the medium and Heavy regiments weren't all that busy in western Holland...

<edit to add> ...besides, I just noticed, that's a 1st Canadian Army TAC sign on the left of the lorry bonnet...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I think we went through this one before, either here or on the old MLU Forum.

Yes we did - see the thread "Garry, is this your dad?!?" on the Old MLU Forum.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Re: 182 - Geoff - Some thoughts on 182
October 19 2002 at 11:19 PM Mark



Response to 182?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Geoff;

After thinking about this most of today and after doing some digging, I'm starting to wonder if maybe the vehicles in this photo are from No. 81 Artillery Company, RCASC (1st Cdn AGRA Arty Coy)?

The reason I say this, is that, when the 1st Cdn AGRA left the UK in 1943 for Italy, the the Unit Serials for the 2nd Cdn AGRA were changed to the 173-180 block due to the fact that they were now the first AGRA in First Canadian Army. I've always assumed, that when the 1st Cdn AGRA rejoined the First Canadian Army in early 1945, that they reverted back to the 173-180 block, with 2nd Cdn AGRA also reverting to the 181-187 block (the second AGRA block in an Army).

But, what if they didn't revert and 1st Cdn AGRA were assigned the 181-187 block instead, this would be more in line with Garry's dad's history and since it was a 1st Cdn Corps operation, this would mean that the 182 was for the 1st Med Regt, RCA and if thats the case, then that would mean that the vehicles themselves, again, judging by the markings, are from "B" Platoon, No. 81 Artillery Company, RCASC, who were attached to 1st Cdn AGRA throughout the war.

I've never actually read or have seen anything about the markings of the two Cdn AGRAs' after the return of 1st Cdn AGRA to First Canadian Army, only that after 1st Cdn AGRA left in 1943, 2nd Cdn AGRA were assigned the block for the first AGRA in an Army (173-180), which they were, because effectively, 1st Cdn AGRA left First Canadian Army and became part of the Eighth British Army.

Given that Garry has said that his father served from Sicily onwards and that the Cdn part of the relief was in the 1st Cdn Corps area of the Netherlands, the above is really starting to make sense.

The curator of the RCA Museum owes me a favor, I think I'm going to call it in regarding shedding some light on the markings of the two Cdn AGRAs' after the 1st Cdn AGRA rejoined First Canadian Army in early 1945.

Anything I have seen or read regarding the markings of the two Cdn AGRAs in N.W. Europe, has always referred to post May 1945 (ie, after the end of the war in Europe), with 1st Cdn AGRA using the 173-180 block and 2nd Cdn AGRA using the 181-187 block, but I know that from late 1943, 2nd Cdn AGRA used the 173-180 block, due to them being the first AGRA in First Canadian Army.

Thoughts, comments on this Geoff.

Cheers

**************************************************
Thanks Hanno, knew it was in there somewhere, anyways, Garry, here it is again. Cheers

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

I was browsing the internet under the Dodge W37 Weapons carrier forum from a sight in Holland under English titles,through a MV Links sight,I logged onto a title "The Liberator",a forum about WW2 motorcycles.Scrolling down through various photos,Lo & Behold,my dad's picture came up,originally from"A Liberation Album".The caption underneath read".A Canadian soldier finally identified as William James(Jamie)Shipton of the RCASC from Kingston Ontario."sitting on a bike in front of a long row of beautiful C60's,just like Marc Montgomery's truck which I've had the priviledge of touching & smelling.It brings things alive for me & my family that they're not forgotten although now gone.
I suspect that through the MLU forum & Hanno's input showing the picture.all of Holland can see a liberator identified during the food shortage affecting the people just before wars' end
Kudos & thanks GWB/Hanno for keeping their service alive,especially at this time of year leading up to Rememberance Day,November 11th.
Thanks guys
Garry

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Garry,

It was you who identified your own dad in the picture in the first place. I thank you for putting a name to one of those millions of unnamed soldier's faces in pictures.

Lest we forget!

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
I logged onto a title "The Liberator",a forum about WW2 motorcycles.Scrolling down through various photos,Lo & Behold,my dad's picture came up,originally from"A Liberation Album".The caption underneath read".A Canadian soldier finally identified as William James(Jamie)Shipton of the RCASC from Kingston Ontario."

Garry, was it this site http://users.pandora.be/theliberator/myliberator.htm you saw? This Belgian site features the famous photo showing your dad:
http://users.pandora.be/theliberator...WLCHOLLAND.jpg
with the caption: "This Export 43WLC heads a CMP Truck column carrying food to the Dutch population in April 1945. The rider has been identified as Corporal William James (Jamie) Shipton from Kingston,Ontario of the First Division,Royal Canadian Army Service Corp. The markings on these vehicles identify the unit as 3rd Medium Regt RCA, attached to the 1st Canadian Army in Holland in 1945. (Picture from Steve GUTHRIE's website)".

But wait till you see this!

http://users.pandora.be/theliberator...s/WLCJoeri.jpg
"Inspired by the wartime image, Joeri Quintyn marked his 43WLC accordingly just prior to the Belgian Wings&Wheels Show on August 8th 2004. The white line under the insignia was still missing."

Did you know this? I think it is a very, very nice tribute to your dad.

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
"Inspired by the wartime image, Joeri Quintyn marked his 43WLC accordingly just prior to the Belgian Wings&Wheels Show on August 8th 2004. The white line under the insignia was still missing."

Here's a slightly larger version of the same picture, as found on the Wings & Wheels site.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Related threads:
- CMP's (old MLU Forum, August 15 2002)
- Unit no. 182 (July 6th 2003)

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Hanno,
There are no words to express how I am feeling at this moment..Please,if you can,thank Joeri for me from the bottom of my heart.To honour the old D-Day Dodger and his comrades in this way is hard for me to put into words.A little piece of Canada being kept alive in your ccountry.
Thank you.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Mark,don't know if this helps.I re-read your post from last July concerning the unit.I do remember dad telling me that while in Sicily/Italy,they supplied the shells to A Battery RCHA from Kingston Ontario.He mentioned that he was always in contact while near the front with my two uncles from that unit,so is seem logical from your input that you're dead on with your synopsis.
Garry

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
Please,if you can,thank Joeri for me from the bottom of my heart.

Garry, I´ll see if I can get in touch with Joeri (he´s from Belgium, actually). Now that I know what to look for I´ll keep my eyes open at the military vehicle events I will attend this year to get some more pictures.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Garry, I´ll see if I can get in touch with Joeri (he´s from Belgium, actually). Now that I know what to look for I´ll keep my eyes open at the military vehicle events I will attend this year to get some more pictures.

Hanno,
You won't believe this one.Back in 1973,when I was young and single and my pockets jingled, I bought a book called "The Lancaster at War" by Mike Garbett and Brian Goulding which my father was leafing through.Now,this book is about a bomber aka Air Force.Lo and behold on page 126,he looks over to me and says"He took my picture".I asked what he was talking about!!.So ,he goes on to explain that while on leave in London, while crossing Trafalgar Square,he noticed a photographer,with a camera on a tripod taking photos of a Lancaster bomber,up on a pedastal in the square used to buy war bonds.The photo is captioned "Wings of Victory",and believe it or not,there goes,right in front of the photo,our one and only CMP driver, right in the front of the picture, under the nose of the bomber.I wonder how many guys like him are published in books,making it two for him.What are the odds??Beats me.I wish I had a scanner for the additional pictures I have.What a shame that I can't share them.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Sitting here in the den,just had a thought.When my dad was a convoy outrider on a motorcyclr for his company of CMP's,was there any official directives on how the cconvoy was led?Dumb question,but still wondering on how a convoy was led!!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

According to Blackburn - in a nutshell - by whatever poor dumb 2nd Lieutenant who happened to attract the CO's attention. And woe betide he who got the convoy lost!

The outriders were responsible for ensuring convoy integrity... I don't know about an RCASC unit, but an RCA Field Regiment's vehicle train was some miles in length (as I suspect most others were as well), and outriders were necessary to ensure everybody got to where they were supposed to be going, making the proper turns at the right time etc. A tough job, especially at night. A friend of mine's father was an ambulance driver in England, and he recalls scraping the remains of a lot of motorcyclists off the stone walls in English villages. He'd only say that when he was pissed as a newt, which, if I recall, was a lot of the time. never quite got over it. I expect it was the same over on the continent, only with the added flavour of mines, snipers and random artillery thrown into the recipe...

Not a dumb question Garry. Your father was service corps which was primarily transport.
In an Infantry Bn all the Sergeants in the Transport Platoon had to learn to ride a motorcycle as did those in Support Coy. The Transport Officer was resposible for the movement of a Bn Convoy. He detailed the movement and basically what was done we leapfrog each other at the sailient points.
I know that in our unit we had to take a motorcyle course and a traffic control course all administered by the RCASC.

As an aside the chap who fitted me with an artificial limb was an MC driver in the Black Watch he told me he felt pretty sheepish when he came home until he found out that the other nine amputees with him were from MC accidents.

[Jon Skagfeld]

In more recent times, i.e. the sixties, in the Signal Corps, MCs were used not only for SDR/ SDS/DR duties, they were used for convoy control.

Using the "leapfrog" method, we could get a 20-30 vehicle convoy (or smaller packets) out of the city of Toronto a great speed.

There would be two bikes in front of the convoy, two bikes riding alongside the middle of the convoy and two bikes at the rear of the convoy.

Upon reaching say, a set of traffic lights, the two front bike riders would dismount in the middle of the intersection and direct the convoy through whilst stopping cross traffic. (Dismounting a Triumph TRW was somewhat complicated by the bike's not having a neutral finder...one usually just stalled the beast jumped off, and started directing traffic).

Simultaneously, the two middle bikes would move to the head of the convoy, the two at the rear would move to the middle and the two at the lights would follow on behind.

Repeat as necessary.

This was back when the majority of civilian drivers had respect for a moving military convoy...indeed, it was illegal under the Highway Traffic Act, to interfere with the passage of a convoy.

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
According to Blackburn - in a nutshell - by whatever poor dumb 2nd Lieutenant who happened to attract the CO's attention. And woe betide he who got the convoy lost!

The outriders were responsible for ensuring convoy integrity... I don't know about an RCASC unit, but an RCA Field Regiment's vehicle train was some miles in length (as I suspect most others were as well), and outriders were necessary to ensure everybody got to where they were supposed to be going, making the proper turns at the right time etc. A tough job, especially at night. A friend of mine's father was an ambulance driver in England, and he recalls scraping the remains of a lot of motorcyclists off the stone walls in English villages. He'd only say that when he was pissed as a newt, which, if I recall, was a lot of the time. never quite got over it. I expect it was the same over on the continent, only with the added flavour of mines, snipers and random artillery thrown into the recipe...

I remember him telling me that he lost a buddie when the fellow crashed head on into a US Air Force truck who was driving on the wrong side of the road.It was during the blackout in England and he was following on a second MC.Unfortuneately,they were both iinebriated,and his buddy was carrying a few bottles of wine in his tunic,which in itself,did a lot of damage.Its amazing to see stats on unit accidental deaths even before going into battle.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
Sitting here in the den,just had a thought.When my dad was a convoy outrider on a motorcyclr for his company of CMP's,was there any official directives on how the cconvoy was led?Dumb question,but still wondering on how a convoy was led!!

Hi Garry;

Thought you might find this of interest concerning RCASC 'out riders'. Its taken from 'Wait for the Waggon, The Story of the Royal Canadian Army Service Corps.'

"Early in 1943 it was becoming apparent that the system of controlling a Platoon and organizing its defence 'on the march' left much to be desired. The approved 'Order of March' made it difficult for those in authority to exercise command.

This Order of March provided for two motorcycles out in front as point riders, followed by six defensive vehicles under a Sergeant (the first two were called 'block vehicles' and their function was to pull across the road and block it in the event of frontal attack), after which came the Platoon Commander in his Jeep. Behind him were the task vehicles of his Platoon spaced out at twenty to the mile, or at roughly eighty-five yard intervals.

This arrangement had several undesirable aspects. In the first place the Officer Commanding who was responsible for the Platoon was not in a position to lead it. He was behind several vehicles, which automatically delegated the responsibility for following the right route to those in front of him, and made it awkward for him to order defensive manoeuvres when neccessary.

In the second place, the arrangement made it difficult to maintain adequate control of the Platoon on the road, particularly at night and, with approximately eight-five yards between vehicles, it was too easy for a driver to lose the vehicle ahead and take a wrong turn.

Senior officers of the RCASC, who kept all aspects of Army Service Corps work under continuous study, considered this problem. They recalled the dictum that the most important body of men in an Infantry Battalion is the Section of nine men commanded by a Corporal, that this is the fighting unit, and that it must be under command-that if the nine men are not under command they cease to be a fighting unit. In accordance with this principle, it seemed that the Section Corporal of a Transport Platoon, his drivers, and his vehicles, should be a command unit. In the existing Order of March they were not.

A new Order of March was evolved, putting the OC at the head of his Platoon with one motorcyclist. Behind him came the defence vehicles with their light machine guns, followed by the task vehicles in Sections, or 'packets,' of six vehicles each, with each Section commanded and controlled by its Corporal on a motorcycle. The senior Sergeant, also on a motorcycle, brought up the rear.

The road space occupied by the Platoon remained unchanged - twenty vehicles to the mile - but vehicles in each Section ran well closed up, with the extra road space separating the sections. As a result, the Corporal on his motorcycle was able to control his Section without difficulty, particularly at intersections. He could stand at an intersection, stop opposing traffic, and direct his vehicles onto the road they should take."

Photo: An RCASC Platoon Sergeant controls his Platoon on exercise.

Cheers

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Your knowledge of our army supercedes any requests for information.Thanks again.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
Your knowledge of our army supercedes any requests for information.Thanks again.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Garry, was it this site http://users.pandora.be/theliberator/myliberator.htm you saw? This Belgian site features the famous photo showing your dad:

Reviving an old thread, looking for information about "Operation Faust" I recalled an MLU member's dad was involved in this operation.

Here is a current link to the website featuring this tribute WLC: http://www.theliberator.be/liberator6.htm

This Export 43WLC heads a CMP Truck column carrying food to the Dutch population in April 1945. The rider has been identified as Corporal William James (Jamie) Shipton from Kingston,Ontario of the First Division,Royal Canadian Army Service Corp. The markings on these vehicles identify the unit as 3rd Medium Regt RCA, attached to the 1st Canadian Army in Holland in 1945. (Picture from Steve GUTHRIE)


Inspired by the wartime image, Joeri Quintyn marked his 43WLC5668 accordingly just prior to the Belgian Wings&Wheels Show on August 8th 2004. The white line under the insignia was still missing.