Canadian Ferret surfaces in NJ

[Robin Craig]

On Good Friday morning I set off to New Jersey to visit my newest Ferret related friend.

Paul recently bought this Ferret that has an interesting history.

Since being released it spent time down south in the USA and was owned and operated by an organisation with a good idea but seemingly poor or flawed execution.

The Armed Response Group US (ARGUS) owned a number of vehicles including this Ferret and a Saracen. The basic concept was privately owned vehicles to assist law enforcement in such situations as needed, thereby reducing the need for one department to own the asset.

Below are various links to stories that show the provenance.

http://www.cheminade2017.fr/Raid-du-...yndon-LaRouche

http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/publi...aided_in_f.pdf

http://www.wlym.com/archive/oakland/...ordsLouden.pdf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.2f30b6ec3ecc
http://<br /> http://www.larouchepub...heriffs_de.pdf
http://<br /> https://www.washington...=.d9b27b777a00
http://<br /> http://articles.dailyp...ehicles-bryant

The vehicle showed up on ebay in the USA and was in a terrible state which likely put people off considerably.

This Ferret has quite some significance in relation to the CF Ferrets and also in relation to one of my two Ferrets about which there has been some unproven conjecture.

More pictures to follow in the following posts.

[Robin Craig]

There are many things that we look for in establishing the provenance of articles and vehicles. Patina is one of them and it is without just about impossible to fake. When sand blasting is done or painting and items are shielded or masked it leaves evidence behind. These lights have remnants of a very well known paint scheme that most of you know very well

[Robin Craig]

Fitting of country specific items can be faked by bolting them on but the number of modifications that are typical to a country of use such as how Canadian Ferrets were modified becomes a very conclusive smoking gun. The Canadian replacement of the British generator with an M series one and the addition of the civvy turn signal unit attached by a gear clamp to the steering column and the addition of a gauge to show charging are such typical details

[Robin Craig]

While there are a stack of approved modification in relation to Ferrets in Canadian service, it has become very clear to me, and has been poinyted out by others, that not all modifications were done to all vehicles in service and there is a variation to that level.

It appears that this one has had the early style of bolted deck upgraded to having the 1/4 turn locks in the back corner. There is a uniform pattern still visible where the old bolts holes went.

[Robin Craig]

The rear armour on Canadian Ferrets has been often modified by the removal of the light for illuminating the licence plate and the addition of footman loops welded to the top of the armour to secure the two jerry cans held in the M series style mounts as show by the four bolt pattern.

[Robin Craig]

just recently I posted a request looking for parts related to this heater modification which has been looped here and the heater is not present inside the vehicle

[Robin Craig]

Typical with most Canadian used Ferrets is the M series lighting on all four corners

[Robin Craig]

The finally, some will claim that Canada only used square side hatched vehicles, but there is no documentation to prove that assertion and this vehicle is the same as my c/s 31 which has the sloped side hatch.

While the square hatched vehicles all seem to have a very well followed and documented stamping of the CFR on the front flat surface armour this one does not which is consistent to mine.

I assert most strongly that all the previous patina and equipment fitment is overwhelming evidence that this vehicle is an ex Canadian Ferret desite the lack of stamped in CFR.

I know that Paul and I looked and looked on his yesterday and have decided that we will engage an NDT type to use etching to see if we can find the stamping evidence. Lacking that I am very happy to asure myself both these vehicles are not made up wanna be Canadian Ferrets but genuine vehicles that did not happen to follow the standard.

I found it amusing that despite no outward evidence on the left fender of any holes to mount a CFR plate when I delved under Pauls and offered a CFR plate I had brought with me to the two blobs of drooping bondo they matched up perfectly with the spacing of the plate, very interesting eh?

The oil cooler is an early style that I have only ever seen in manuals and not in person which was a great first for me

[rob love]

Another thing to look for are the new fire extinguisher bracket mounting blocks which will match the 5 pounder ansul fire extinguisher. If memory serves, extinguishers were on the front, the rear left, and inside the hull.

[Paul Salaterski]

Hello Everyone,

Let me begin by saying that I'm the new owner of the Argus Ferret. I have never owned nor had I ever seen a Daimler Ferret in person. This Ferret was purchased on EBay. I had little to go on except for the auction photos. There was no information given at the time of purchase as to the prior history of it. I thought it was going to be an easy process to find the numbers and track it down, but I was going to learn quite the opposite. After reading some posts on the Ferret, I immediately began sanding off paint to reveal stamped numbers. What I didn't know was that each darn part on the Ferret is numbered. That was including each individual plate of armor included. Knowing this basic fact would have saved me an immense amount of time and the possibility of lung issues in my future. In any case, I eventually found this out and continued my search with a light and a magnifying glass. When I had a question, I would post it. It was one of my posts that caught the eye of Robin Craig. I couldn't believe how quickly he responded. I had too many questions to answer and not enough basic knowledge of the Ferret, so Robin traveled from Canada to my location in New Jersey. He insisted that he would not accept any money towards the cost of the trip or his time. Honestly, I was shocked, but as soon as he arrived he began teaching me or introducing me to the Ferret and its intricacies. It was a tremendous amount of info to absorb in the two days that he stayed, but I learned so much. Robin had insisted that this Ferret was Canadian from the very moment he set his eyes on it. I was impressed with his knowledge and enthusiasm, but was losing faith when the CAR or CFR numbers could not be located in the usual locations. He noticed during the time that he spent with me that I seemed to be more interested in finding those numbers than worrying about getting it ready for its first start-up. He was correct. My interest in finding some type of clue as to its previous history was overwhelming me. We did postpone the starting of the Ferret due to Robin finding that the fluid in the flywheel was very low. The decision to hold off was decided after determining that the mess that might follow if the seal had dried would not be worth the risk and time needed to clean it up. Robin and I agreed that he would return at some point to help me remove the power-pack and that all would be fine. After Robin left, I continued my search for the CAR no results. After four or five months of searching for countless hours, I may have found what I was looking for, but in a place where I doubt few would have even thought to look. I searched that forward plate near the horn over and over without finding a thing. I thought that I may have sanded the number off during the search, but I had been so careful. I'll never know now. Where I found my first clue as to what I believe to be the CAR was on the right-side of the Ferret. There is a locker or compartment with a hatch/door just forward of the rear wheel. This hatch/door has a latch welded to it that is fastened down with a twist nut. On the top-side of the latch I found what I believe to be the CAR for this vehicle. It didn't appear to be a part number as found on all the other parts because the style or font was different. The numbers also seemed to be stamped individually rather than as a set such as a part number would be stamped. I will include a photo of this below. The first number may appear to be a three, but in actuality it is an eight. It was only after finding this did I find the same number on the rear horizontal plate found just behind the left-side main engine cover and just forward of the left-side of the radiator air grate. My parts descriptions may not be accurate, but I will post photos to better show the locations. The number found near the engine cover/ radiator grate has the prefix numbers ( 54 - ) before the 82559. I can see this number with the naked eye, but have not removed the paint yet because I am not quite sure if these numbers are painted or stamped. I'm very hesitant to touch the paint as I have accidentally removed markings in the past that I thought were stamped, but found that they were instead painted. I will take photos and post them as soon as I have managed to uncover them without damaging them in the process. For the record, my only interest or goal in these proceedings was to find out which Ferret I owned out of the thousands that were produced. Whether it served with the Australian, British, Canadian or other armed service was not important to me. What was important to me was having an idea as to which, so that I could return it to an actual facsimile of a specific point in its timeline of active-duty. I will continue to search over this vehicle and report any other findings, but one little piece of advice that I'd like to pass along is in regards to the lighting used when looking for these stamps and markings under or embedded in paint (for the new guys out there such as myself). I've used incandescent lights, LED's of all varying intensities and colors and have found that natural sunlight has been the best source to aid with finding these stamps. I've spent months searching using man-made light inside a building with little to no results. I moved the Ferret to another location that was next to a garage door. I opened the door one sunny day and the flood of sunlight exposed stamps and writing that I had never noticed before even though I had examined the area prior with a different source of light many times over. One other reminder that I had mentioned before (AGAIN, for the new guys out there with Ferrets) is that you please be aware that nearly every piece of metal (armor) and individual part are stamped with letters and numbers. Before you decide to sand all the paint down to expose these numbers, please be aware that you may be sanding an important clue away only to expose a common stamp number that can be found on all of the Ferrets.

[Paul Salaterski]

Hi Rob,

Are these fire extinguisher mounts and if so, are these the correct fire extinguisher mounts for the Ansul 5 pounders? The photos are from the left-side rear just behind the fender. The marks below the visible blocks seem to be grinding marks from previous mount locations.

[Robin Craig]

Dear Paul,

Great to see you here and posting about your Canadian Ferret.

Its 630 here on a Sunday and I am up and off to volunteer at an event for the day, we were called out at 3am this morning to a medical call on the Fire Department, I told you I was a busy boy.

I am now going to go look at mine this afternoon when I get home for what you have found in the same place.

Trust me, yours is a Canadian vehicle, of that I am most certain.

Dan McLaren (sp) posted a picture somewhere from Soest I think it was of a Canadian Ferret with slanted side hatches, that is the one you sent to me, we should put that one up here.

More to come later today

[Paul Salaterski]

Hey Gents,
I decided to spend some time on the Ferret after work today. Almost a full shift later and I've had mixed results with those numbers. What I did find is that all five of my external compartment latches have the same number stamped in them. They are also all individually stamped. The first stamp in the photo above is clearly visible while the remainder are extremely light. They are visible, but the stamps are NOT deep. It would be very easy to remove them with a little too much pressure. I NEVER would have noticed these if that first latch stamp hadn't been struck so well. I used a little bit of aircraft stripper to lightly soften the paint and then used a pocket knife with light pressure. I don't believe that a manufacturer would stamp the same part number into both left and right-sided latches and stamp them individually and so poorly at that. I'll post some more photos as soon as I'm back home. Thanks, Paul

[Wayne Hingley]

The Ferret CFR listings on Ramtank show 82559 having S/N 36BA33 and last unit being 12RBC in Valcartier. I'm sure other people on here can help get more info.

[Paul Salaterski]

Hey Wayne,

Thanks so much for the assistance. I don't quite understand why a Canadian vehicle would have both numbers? I'm assuming that other set of numbers you've given me is from the British Army. I'm going to have to read up on this. Thank you again for your help. Paul

[Wayne Hingley]

I do not know anything about Ferrets, but I suspect the S/N listed would be from the manufacturer and not the British Army. Is there a Daimler data plate on the vehicle? If so, it should have a serial number on it, and with any luck it matches the number above.

[rob love]

While your vehicle does have a serial number, the British assigned it a registration number before it was sold to Canada. Canada wrote that as the serial number when it assigned a Canadian Army Number (CAR). That number later became the Canadian Forces Registration number when the Canadian Army, Navy, and Airforce unified in the late 60s.

The Canadian number of 54-82559 has some meaning. The 54 is the year it was accepted into Canadian service, and the 80,000 was a block of numbers saved for armoured vehicles. The ferrets ran from 82500 to 82623.

Your number 82559 would have been on license plates when the Cdn forces began using their own plates instead of provincial plates.

If you go to the ramtank page ( http://ramtank.ca/ferret.htm ) you will see photos of many of Canada's ferrets.

[Ed Storey]

The serial number for your Ferret 54-82559 is 36BA33, it was disposed of in September 1982.

[Paul Salaterski]

Hey Robin,

My apologies for not responding sooner. Glad to hear from you! Please tell me if you find anything on yours. I'm crossing my fingers, but PLEASE be gentle as I've recommended previously with removing the paint. The stamp is barely visible with the naked eye once the paint is removed at least on four of my latches, but they are there for sure.

Wayne,
No aluminum data plate inside the vehicle, just the welded tag with hull number and date. 464 . B . 8 . 4 ..

Rob L.,
Thank you. Now I understand! That explains a great deal to me. I'm going to visit that link you left for me as soon as I'm finished typing this.

Ed,
Thank you for that info. Every bit is really helping me out. Do you think there might be any other records of release or disposal to be found from 1982?

I've contacted Bovington Tank Museum in the past with regards to this Ferret, but they were unable to assist due to my not having the registration number for it. Unfortunately, the hull number and date on tag was really of no assistance to them. Now that I have the registration number, what are the chances of them having a previous photo of it? I REALLY want to know
so much more about it. I'll post some more info in a bit. Have to get back to work. Thanks again and best regards to all of you, Paul

[Paul Salaterski]

By the way, Robin had previously mentioned that this Ferret was in a well known paint scheme. Which paint scheme is it? Does anyone have a photo of the paint scheme as it would have appeared on a Ferret? Thanks!

[rob love]

I think I posted the Ferret paint scheme about a decade or so back, so I have it in my file cabinets at home somewhere. The Canadian ferrets were painted in a pattern of black/flat green/light off white in the late 60s/early 70s, and changed to the more standard black/flat green and Canadian olive drab.

Alternatively, depending on the time period you want to rep[resent, it can be in the British semi-gloss Green, or after repaint, the Canadian semi-gloss green (much darker than the US semi-gloss green and without the brown tint).

I suspect the CFR number stamped on the bins was to prevent swapping between vehicles. The bins were subject to damage, and the armoured corps was always big on presentation. Especially that long bin over the side escape hatch.

[Paul Salaterski]

Hey Rob,

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction with the paint scheme. I'll try looking for a few photos on the net. Your thoughts concerning the CFR's on the bins was something I had never thought of. Excellent!
I did spend some more time looking for numbers last night. I decided to change things up a bit and spent some time on the interior. What caught my eye this time was the small metal tag with the hull # and date. My interior was painted white at some point, so I have an extra coat of paint that helps hide things. I noticed that there was what appeared to be another digit on the tag above the date so I pulled my knife out and started scratching away at the top layer of paint. What I found was three additional numerals above the date. I believe that it might be 8 26. I'll post a couple photos. Has anyone any idea as to the meaning of these? I'm having a little issue reading the first digit, so I'm not exactly sure whether it's an eight as of yet.

[Robin Craig]

Paul,

I am on a course this week and the book work is heavy and I haven't been able to investigate mine as yet. Will be next week until I am done.

[maple_leaf_eh]

https://captainstevens.com/military/...erret-numbers/

At link is a long-ish discussion of where Canadian Ferrets were marked and how. The anguish of sanding off the original number might have been misplaced. According to Colin, there is a double-sided plate over the driver's right shoulder with a hull number applied. This would resemble the British number often seen on the front over the driver's hatch.

You are hoping to find a number that resembles 54- 82500 through 82623. The site has some conversation how the hull number was misrepresented in official paperwork.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

The hull dataplate on Paul Salaterski's Ferret, which is the first thing I look for in a Ferret, reads 464.B.8.4 as shown in his photos.
This decodes as Ferret Hull number 464, Build date 8th month (AUG) 1954.
That vehicle was assigned British registration number 37 BA 38
AND
Australian Registration Number (ARN) 115178
I had record this Ferret when it was owned and for sale by Al Barto in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA.

Available records show that Canadian and Australian Ferrets are intermingled serial numbers
e.g.

Hull 417 was Canadian CAR 54-82604 (ex-36 BA 91)
Hull 418 was Australian ARN 115152 (ex-36 BA 92)
and
Hull 460 was Canadian CAR 54-82623 (ex-37 BA 34) (Canada's last Ferret apparently)
Hull 461 was Australian ARN 115180 (ex-37 BA 35).

The traces of white paint suggest that it was once painted white for United Nations service. Australia has provided military and police personnel to 62 United Nations and other multilateral peace and security operations since 1947. Thus, white paint does not mean that it had to be in Canadian UN service.
https://www.dfat.gov.au/internationa...0since%201947.

No CAR/CFR number was found except for a "possible" last 5 digits on bin latches. Why and how it has a possible Canadian identify 54-82559 (i.e. 82559 stamped on bin lids, is a mystery. I suspect that the 82559 is a part number.

Its hull number is out of the sequence for Canadian Ferrets.

I have a photo of a Mk. 2 Ferret in Canadian markings in Cyprus with UNFICYP, painted green. Officially we never bought any Mk. 2 Ferrets but I suspect that this was a loaner while a Canadian Mk. I was in the British shops in Cyprus being repaired and possibly being upgraded a bit.

Canada is known to buy used +/or surplus military equipment (submarines ex-UK, F-18 fighter jets (ex-Australia) and two used Airbus A330 passenger jets (from a global leasing firm). However I am not aware of any ex-Aussie Ferrets coming to Canada for use by the Canadian Army or Canadian Armed Forces, though some might have come here by private owners. Some ex-Aussie Ferrets have however may have ended up with surplus dealers in the USA.

As I tell every collector of historic military vehicles, the history of your vehicle is in the markings under layers of paint. e.g. Painted markings, decals and markings stamped into the metal (e.g. CAR number). If a vehicle is sandblasted or Redi-stripped for example, all painted markings and decals are removed. Here are photos of the Ferret that I used to own, 54-82598, that had original paint. The previous owner had uncovered the CAR number. I uncovered many more markings and even a STUDENT DRIVER plate that had slipped doiwn between a bin and the hull. https://captainstevens.com/military/...-car/54-82598/
Once the paint and markings are removed, it is like reformatting your computer without first making a back-up.

I recommend that the owner (Paul) contact the Australian Ferret owners to see if they Aussies made modifications to their Ferrets similar to those made by Canada. As well, I suggest contcating the Australian War Memorial to see if records survive for this Ferret. Also, search AWM's photo archives and Aussie armoured units web sites for photos of Ferrets in Australian service and to see about mofifications and ideally to find photos of Ferret 115178.

Colin MacGregor Stevens, Richmond, BC, CANADA

Originally Posted by Paul Salaterski

Hey Rob,

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction with the paint scheme. I'll try looking for a few photos on the net. Your thoughts concerning the CFR's on the bins was something I had never thought of. Excellent!
I did spend some more time looking for numbers last night. I decided to change things up a bit and spent some time on the interior. What caught my eye this time was the small metal tag with the hull # and date. My interior was painted white at some point, so I have an extra coat of paint that helps hide things. I noticed that there was what appeared to be another digit on the tag above the date so I pulled my knife out and started scratching away at the top layer of paint. What I found was three additional numerals above the date. I believe that it might be 8 26. I'll post a couple photos. Has anyone any idea as to the meaning of these? I'm having a little issue reading the first digit, so I'm not exactly sure whether it's an eight as of yet.
Attachment 94215
Attachment 94216

[Ed Storey]

Colin, thank you for the update which is a good reminder to always check with the Ferret data plate before jumping to CFR conclusions!

[Robin Craig]

Gents, Paul had a miserable turn of luck with his health and has given up ownership of both vehicles and has moved and was in very poor health the last time I spoke with him appearing just to be waiting for the end to arrive. Both vehicles are in circulation in the US separately. Time will tell on them and their fate and their identity.