Two Kettenrads

[Ed Storey]

The are only two SWW German SdKfz 2 Kettenkraftrads in Canada and surprisingly both reside in Ottawa, but that is where the similarity ends. One is unrestored and on public display in a national museum where it is potentially viewed each year by tens of thousands of people.



The other is owned by a private collector, it does not get viewed by tens of thousands of people, but it has been restored with the utmost attention to detail.



Opposite ends of the spectrum with very different ideas when it comes to preserving historical artefacts.

[James P]

And after putting in a couple hours fault chasing its up and running again.

[chris vickery]

Always thought these to be the ultimate cool German MV. Not sure it wanted to be a motorcycle or a light tank so get the best of both. Not sure what they were thinking when they devised these but awesome nonetheless

[Robert Bergeron]

I saw the one at the Museum 100 times . What was their purpose anyway ? Thanks .

[chris vickery]

Robert, initially these were designed to be a light gun tractor for smaller artillery.
Most use including hauling light trailers of supplies, men and equipment. Especially used on the Eastern Front.
I believe they also used these in the Luftwaffe as aircraft tugs

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Not sure it wanted to be a motorcycle or a light tank so get the best of both. Not sure what they were thinking when they devised these but awesome nonetheless

Chris, it is neither a motorcycle nor a tank - it is, like you said, a light tracked tractor. It uses a motorcycle front end to make minor steering corrections, and uses controlled differential steering for change of direction. Like all German half-track vehicles.

Ed, thanks for posting this dilemma: put a vehicle on display and never use it to prevent it from braking down? Or use it like it was designed for with the associated wear & tear. Or even the occasional crash & burn.... The jury is still out on this question and will never solve it, so in the meantime it is good to have both ends of the spectrum!

Hanno

[Wayne Hingley]

Its actually a multi-dimensional spectrum; as among other things, there are those who store these things to rust away, unseen, unrestored and not for sale. There are also the ones that end up in scrap because someone doesn't know or care about the historic value.

Personally; Im ok with either of the first two examples mentioned by Ed.

[maple_leaf_eh]

So to add to the multi-dimensional aspect, how about sellers who believe their junk is priceless and refuse to face reality. I can think of a roadside seller who had a couple of Canadian M151A2 hulks. His starting price was high four-figures or low five-figures and unwilling to budge - so I've been told. Running and roadworthy examples of those vehicles at the time were selling for well below that price range. Either he thought he had a monopoly, or was reluctant to think less of his treasures.

[Robert Bergeron]

Thanks Chris. Robert

[Ed Storey]

I believe that perception is key, no-one goes to an art museum to see mouldy artwork on rotted canvasses so why would the public want to see dilapidated military vehicles that are falling apart in a military museum? I have travelled extensively in Europe (on my own dime) and the national museums over there have dropped this antiquated display method in favour of restored vehicles which I feel shows a respect for the artefacts. This respect is in turn passed on to the viewing public who realize that they are not looking at unkempt metal but respected historic items.



No rusty junk in the Panzer Museum in Munster.

[Russ Gregg]

James, it was a pleasure to meet you today, I really enjoyed seeing it in person and also the pictures of your extensive reconstruction of this unique vehicle. Thank you for making the effort to bring it to the Aquino event.

[Bruce MacMillan]

Here we see the oft blurred line between "museum" and "collector" quality.
Museums should preserve and display artifacts as found. This gives a item provenance. People often think that a item rebuilt to be as new is what museums want. Talk to any curator at the CWM or IWM and you'll find the history is more important than how it looks.

There is a need for both camps. Rebuilt vehicles are needed for living history displays. These venues can be taken to the public and give some idea of working items of that era. One of the biggest and popular is the Living History area of W&P.

The public there doesn't know that the German panzer is actually a FV432 chassis made up to look the part. But we are all entertained.

[James P]

^ I have to totally disagree with just about everything you are stating that museums should get a pass at doing restoration work and display a artifact/vehicle incorrectly because that is now its "history". I have heard that eye rolling line at the CWM and just think it is a an easy out and excuse.

[James P]

Originally Posted by Russ Gregg

James, it was a pleasure to meet you today, I really enjoyed seeing it in person and also the pictures of your extensive reconstruction of this unique vehicle. Thank you for making the effort to bring it to the Aquino event.

Thank you Russ, the day, the weather, and displays went well and many folks got to see the kett first hand and ask a million a one questions.

[Barry Churcher]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

The jury is still out on this question and will never solve it, so in the meantime it is good to have both ends of the spectrum!

Hanno

I got a chance to look at the Kettenkrad yesterday and it is truly a nice restoration. It sat loud and proud on it's patch of grass to the delight of fans and looked impressive. Meanwhile the museum vehicles were roaring around in the mud to the delight of the fans. I enjoyed both and I appreciated both for what they were. Lots of people crap on the museums but they certainly have their place. I know first hand that if it wasn't for the generosity of some of these museums vehicles like Bruce Parker's immaculate FOX wouldn't be on the road. The same applies to my C15TA.
Cheers,
Barry

[Bruce MacMillan]

Originally Posted by James P

^ I have to totally disagree with just about everything you are stating.

I take it you are responding to my comments.

The people that run the museums are professionals in their field. They follow standard practice & guidelines when dealing with exhibits. They are not in the hobby of restoring things.

You will notice my second paragraph said there is room for both camps. An example of leave alone is the LRDG Chev 30CWT at the IWM in London. It is displayed as found in the desert including rust & flat tires. The exhibit tells a story.

A great example of restoration is Rob Love's work on the cadillac. It also tells a story that can be brought to the people.

The point I was trying to make was that museums are a place where people can go to research or study original artifacts. If items are restored or modified then what happens to any historical significance?

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Bruce MacMillan

The people that run the museums are professionals in their field.

The point I was trying to make was that museums are a place where people can go to research or study original artifacts. If items are restored or modified then what happens to any historical significance?

Ah, but professional at what? Certainly not the details of the artifacts themselves (they often haven't a clue how they were used or in what context). No, the artifacts are there to tell a historical tale, and even that has taken on a whole new meaning in recent years. It used to be the tale of kings and generals in the formation of nations and in great military or political events. Now it is quite different. Historians will tell you history is all about giving voice to those oppressed people in history who had none. Therefore it is no longer about generals and kings, it's about the overlooked stories of those who had these momentous events swirling about them.

In any event, museum professionals feel they are at their best when they take a single 'significant' artifact, say a shoe, place it in a nicely back lit glass case and invite museum patrons to gaze upon it and say "...uhhhh...I feel deep emotion..."

As to the restoration of artifacts, I really am of two minds. Greek pottery is not displayed in shards as found, it's pieced together. I guess there is a point where something is so far gone it cannot give the observer any sense of what it was like in life. Rob's ambulance may be one in that category.

In New Orleans there is the universally acclaimed best American WW2 museum. It has two parts, the first being in the camp of introspection and has its share of those infamous back lit glass cases. They invite you to sit in a fake train car where you take on the persona of a WW2 participant (I declined that part) and, as with the CWM, I found a good number of errors in their artifact descriptions. The second part is a cavernous building with restored vehicles (Sherman, Stewart, Jeep, etc.), and restored aircraft (B-17, Avenger, Corsair, etc) suspended from the ceiling with elevated walkways allowing you to get right up close to them. Given the state of vehicles and aircraft that have been modified and left to the weather, there's no way the museum could have displayed them as found.

[Ed Storey]

There certainly have been some valid points made in this discussion, I do agree with Bruce MacMillan that provenance is key to an artifact although in the case of the museum Kettenrad that I included in my original post, all provenance has been covered up with a coat of 1950s RCEME/Museum German grey and fake markings to the point where there is nothing to research or study. I agree as well that FV432 Panzer IIIs are great crowd pleasers and movie props, but this is where I disagree as I am a firm believer that the viewing public needs to be well informed during living history displays that the vehicles are replicas.

Bruce Parker also made some great points that I agree with and I am envious as the American WW2 museum in New Orleans is on my list of institutions to visit. I also feel that museums (at least the ones in North America) seem to lean towards the art museum approach where an artifact has to evoke some emotion at the expense of how it was used or played a part in a serving military person’s life. Apparently the current perception is that military technology does not bring in 'Mom, Dad and the two Kids on a Sunday afternoon’ into a museum, but the ‘art gallery’ or ‘birthday party good time for all’ approach does.

What I find difficult to understand is that people are willing to accept unrestored, tattered and poorly painted military vehicles on display in a national museum, yet I am hard-pressed to think of a single aviation museum where the visiting public are subjected to viewing aircraft in the same condition. As well, no-one goes to a vintage car museum to see wrecks on display and like greek pottery or artwork, you only see the best on display in those institutions which house them. I feel there is a perception that for whatever reason in Canada, military museum vehicles are somehow deemed not as worthy of the same display criteria as other major items and this school of thought is perpetuated by leaving poor examples on display – usually outside.

The restored Kettenrad I posted shows the standard of work achieved by one man, with his own money in his garage. What started as a rusted hulk is now a masterpiece of restoration that not only preserves the patina and provenance of the vehicle he restored, but now shows an intriguing and unique vehicle in the correct way in which it was manufactured. From my point of view, when compared to the stripped down, tracks on backward, neglected museum vehicle, it is Gord and his painstaking garage restoration that has it right.

The SdKfz 2 Kettenkraftrad is not the only unique vehicle that can be discussed, have a look at the comparison between this beautifully restored, privately owned VW 166 Schwimmwagen, and its neglected counterpart sitting in a national museum.

[Jason Ginn]

Originally Posted by James P

^ I have to totally disagree with just about everything you are stating that museums should get a pass at doing restoration work and display a artifact/vehicle incorrectly because that is now its "history". I have heard that eye rolling line at the CWM and just think it is a an easy out and excuse.

Gord, As somone who directly benefited from the CWM's preservation of this artefact I'm a little surprised that you are implying the staff fed you a line concerning the long term preservation of objects, especially in an area originally intended as open storage space and not a formal display.

I'm not going to drone on about museum priorities, budgets, political pressures, stakeholders etc. But they often override many internal and external desires and drives to improve complex artefacts.

The key for any museum is and always will be non intrusive preservation and stabilization. Inrervention, especially Restoration is often only considered if interpretation of the object is not possible in its current state. The Kkrad at the CWM is in much the same state as when it was received, missing parts yes, incorrect paint yes, but neglected , deteriorating at an unacceptable rate-no.

Something that also may be considered is the fact that Axis light prime movers/ utility vehicled are pretty low on the long list of significant artefacts housed in the national collection needing additional labour, funds and interpretation.

I full well understand that the axe grinders would be chirping just as loudly if the same pieces were inaccessible and hidden away in closed storage.

I haven't directed this at the OP as he knows this full well as a member of the museum in questions internal structure. As Such he is also aware of the process to have an artefact conserved or restored and has been apart of many such projects.

If people are willing to lobby the CWM, the Friends of the CWM and Fenderal Gov't I am sure that they would be responsive to fund-raising initiatives and listen to the masses that would like to see this object improved.
If that was the intent of the OP super, but you may have wanted to say that in your first post.

Please note I am no longer with the CWM. I just have an opinion because I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night. Oh and I'm also the guy that fed Gord the eye rolling line years back.

[Jordan Baker]

Jason you always make me laugh.

[James P]

Originally Posted by Jason Ginn

Oh and I'm also the guy that fed him the eye rolling line years back.

Don,t go taking credit for that eye rolling statement as it never came from you, but from your superiors at the CWM and I shall stand by my belief that is a easy out /excuse. And to imply I "directly benefited" from the CWM Kettenkrad is rather rich also, but yes that line is indeed eye rolling so you can feel free to own that one.

[chris vickery]

How about this beauty? For sale too...