Canadian Ferrets 1975 CFB Meaford

[Ed Storey]

For Canadian machines, the main weapon evolved from .303 Bren, to M1919A4 .30 cal finally to re-chambred .30 cals which became C6 GPMGs. The weapons mount may also have changed.

Crew weapons changed from Stens to C1 SMGs.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

For Canadian machines, the main weapon evolved from .303 Bren, to M1919A4 .30 cal finally to re-chambred .30 cals which became C6 GPMGs. The weapons mount may also have changed.

Crew weapons changed from Stens to C1 SMGs.

You got your numbers mixed up Ed.

The conversion in the late 60s of M1919s to 7.62 made them into C-1 GPMG. A later upgrade in the late 70s/early 80s to some of the design problems would have resulted in the designation becoming C1A1, but, so as not to cause confusion with the rifle (which, of course was the C1A1) the upgraded GPMG became the C5A1. There never was a C5, although that designation does appear on the cover of the last manual.

The C6 was the FN Mag, first procured as part of the Leopard program, and later adopted to replace the C5A1 in service. I was last issued a C5A1 in 1997 at which time they were withdrawn and replaced with the C6.

[Robin Craig]

This is quite clear to me as a Brit, in the same way mud is clear.

Let me try again.

So, personal weapon for crew 1960s through end of service in the 1980 would have been? 9mm Sterling?

Main weapon was .303 Bren up until replacement by .30 Cal Browning but when was change effected?

Sometimes I am dense

[Ed Storey]

I guess understanding the changes first entails using the correct names for weapons. Canada did not use the Sterling, we used the C1 SMG which was a Canadian Arsenals Limited manufactured 9mm SMG with Canadian features not found on British manufactured weapons. Calling a Canadian C1 SMG is like calling a Land Rover a Jeep. The 9mm Mk II Sten was replaced by the C1 SMG around 1960.

Rough dates for the change from .303 Bren to M1919A4 .30 cal - is early to mid-1960s as at this time the 7.62mm FNC2 was also replacing the Bren. The copy I have of C-30-541-000 CJ-001 Car, Armoured, Ferret, Mk I Scout Car, Command Car, Missile Car .30 Browning Machine Gun Kit Installation Instruction is Issue 1 from Oct 1965 so I guess that would be a good indicator of when the official change came in for the Ferret although I have photographs of M1919 armed Ferrets that pre-date this instruction such as this 1964 Cyprus photograph.

FV 701 Ferret Mk 1 ECC 112102 M1919A4.jpg

As Rob said, the 7.62mm C1 GPMG began in the late 1960s with the C1A1 7.62mm GPMG coming into service about a decade later or just about the time the Ferret was going out of service.

[rob love]

If one looks closely at the GPMG on the Cypress ferret, you can see it is a US .30 cal by the small exit hole for the belt (links) on the right side plate. The 7.62 modification opened that hole up significantly.

I saw a Canadian manual the other day dated around 1953 for the M1919A6.....that would seem to predate the Canadian replacement of the Vickers with the M1919A4 GPMG, which I believe was around 1957 or 1958. The M1919 in it's various forms (M1919A4, C1, C5A1) remained in service with Canada for 40 years.

One thing that could be said of the Canadian army.....it keeps the equipment around for a long long time. Perhaps the one exception is missile systems.

Many of the Canadian M113 FOV are now over 50 years old, although will have been upgraded through 2 major redesigns. I just drove one (a M113A2) out of the shop this afternoon and will be loading it on a flatbed tomorrow to go downtown for a weeklong display. The M109A4+ will follow on Monday.

[Robin Craig]

Ed,

I come here to learn and to put things in order, I don't mind an education or a friendly jab in the ribs about Land Rovers either

It is through discussion here that I am to learn like this.

Thanks for the education, and by the way, did you know the Wilks brother used a Jeep chassis for their prototype Land Rover?

[Robin Craig]

Would not the modification instruction C-30-541-000/CF-030 Stowage, Browning Machine-Gun tripod issue 1-11 Sep 1964 be the ultimate smoking gun document for the change over for the Bren to the .30 Cal?

This is the one that details the stowage of the tripod on the left engine deck cover.

So, that then triggers the question, does anyone have a picture of a Canadian Ferret with the left engine deck without the fittings?