19-Set Vario/Aerial Base Mounting Plate

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Just got a response back from my friend here in Winnipeg about his Plates, Mounting No.1 and he confirms an unpainted underside. The top of his has been painted flat black by hand at some time. One can make out some brush marks on the larger surfaces apparently and some drips down the edge on one side, so his might have been all plated metal originally. Chips in the paint show plated metal beneath and no sign of a primer.

Thin head hex bolts used for all three items attached to the plate.

Chris: I have seen those little spring retainers on the four hex bolts BA No.2 that bolt the assembly to the top of the transceiver used with some other piece of equipment at one time, but I am beggared if I can remember what piece of equipment! Whenever you get around to tracking your Plates, Mounting No.1 down, can you spec out these four BA No.2 hex bolts for us? Total shaft length, length of thread and how far from the head the retaining clip slot has been cut?

When I think of it, it makes sense they used thin head hex bolts to mount this Plates assembly. Not enough room around the variometer to get at cheese head slotted screw with a screw driver. Would think one has to be careful tightening them, however. With the shaft cut for the retaining clips I could see the bolts shearing easily at that point if you had some knuckle dragger working the spanner!

David

I suspect the retaining clips are the same as those used on the WS19 control units, and possibly the supply unit retaining screw. That may be a suitable source of patterns for the clip, although they all use "fillister head" screws.

My plate came as a bare plate, no screws or clips.

All the early/unissued mounting hardware that I've seen has been 'bright', i.e. unpainted (plated) steel. I suspect it was painted to suit the application prior to installation. The post-WW2 hardware seems to have been supplied in green finish.

I'm somewhat surprised that lock washers are not fitted to the various bolts.

(My suggestion of "Plate & Bracket Assy No.1" came from Wireless for the Warrior Volume 2, where it is used throughout. It may be a mistaken designation for the bracket used for the "Condenser X5, 5kV" used with the RF Amplifier No.2, but I'm not sure of this. I wish we had more "Comm. Inst." EMERs (i.e. more than zero) available for the WW2 kit.)

Chris.
(Still gap-filling the "Satchel, Signals" collection - I currently have numbers 1, 2, 3, either 4 or 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 and 12! I have no idea what went in No.8, possibly a test meter of some sort. There are several variations of the No.1 and at least a couple of the No.2 satchel.)

Chris.

[David Dunlop]

Chris.

I will chat with my friend here in town and see if we can get some specs off of one of his retaining bolts. He is missing one himself (his Plates Assembly, not him) and I was chatting earlier today with Mark at British Fastners out your way. He can make up a small batch of these BA2 hex bolts no problem, if he has the right specs. Can't help with the wire spring retainers, however.

David

[Chris Suslowicz]

It's possible that the "Plate & Bracket Assembly" is an earlier version of the "Plates, Mounting", since the drawings in WftW Volume 2 do not show the rectangular notch at the left hand end of the plate. (This was needed to provide clearance for the very long (wrap-around) strap used with Carrier No.25, which started at the LHS of the supply unit, went under the carrier, around the set, under the "Plates, Mounting" and mated with an adapter plate(1) fixed to the top of the supply unit.)

I think this plate may also have been used to fit the 'double-sized' Control Unit No.3 on top of the set in the Daimler Scout Car (though it's possible that a shorter plate or even a wooden block was used).

Chris.

(1) If anyone has one of the adapter plates, shaped like the profile of a house with four holes in the 'roof' part to match the ones in the top of the supply unit, and two keyhole slots to match the adjustable plate on the clamping strap, I'd be very interested. Just the measurements would do! (The plate is necessary because the keyhole slots in the supply unit - intended to fit it on top of the WS19 for Universal Carrier use - point the wrong way for Carrier No.25.)

[David Dunlop]

With regards to the captive screws used with the Plates, Mounting No.1, it is possible the retaining clips used on them are known as 'Circlips' and as Chris suggested, they are indeed used as part of the mounting hardware for the series of Wireless Set No. 19 Control Boxes. They are listed as: Circlips No. 2, ZA 14719 and are used in conjunction with Screws, Captive No.7. I have yet to find any specifications on these particular screws.

Screws, Captive No.5 are used to lock the PSU into it's case and Screws, Captive No.4 are used to mount the 19-Set Transceiver into it's case. In both of these items, the screws are held captive by first threading through their respective face plates. No retaining clip is fastened around the screw shaft.

David

[Tim Bell]

I have one of these plates... no bolts... if someone is making the bolts and the retaining spring clips, I would definitely be interested in a set.

Long shot here...

Is it possible that when the WS38 AFV was mounted on top of the WS19 in a Tank, it would have been onto one of these plates?

Wondering if I should be installing this plate when I put the WS19 into my Firefly in a couple of years time.

EDIT - Is it possible these bolts/screws, are the same as those which hold the WS19 control boxes to the back plates? The spring clips appear to be.. as per this pic...

ControlBox-SpringClip.jpg

Cheers

Tim

[David Dunlop]

Hello Tim. Yes that could be one and the same clip, though not totally certain at this point. Does the bottom of your plate have the same identification stencilled on it as Patrick's and the one here in Winnipeg?

So far, we seem to be aware of two variations on this item, these two in Canada are one and a second one Chris has ID'd from WFTW. If they are an evolution from one to the other in some way, or two distinctly different plates intended for differing specific usages, we are not yet certain.

It does not help at the moment I am without a working scanner. In Bill Gregg's 'Canadian Military Vehicle Profile Series'. Profile No. 5 for the Carrier, Universal, No.2 MkII*, there is a Ford of Canada photograph (U.C.W. 68) showing a plate installation along the same lines, mounted on top of a Mk II 19-Set. This plate has no folded edges front and rear and seems to be equipped with carry straps similar to those found on the larger Carriers No. 23. Quite different from the ZA-10465 ones here in Canada, but Chris will have to look at the Gregg photo to determine if this version matches what is in WFTW, or is yet another variation.

Interestingly, there is a Canadian Army publication dated October 1944, that provides comprehensive coverage of all the 19-Set equipment in use at that time. This plate is not listed at all, nor any other like it for that matter. Yet two show up postwar in Canada, one out of Minto Armoury here in Winnipeg and I am not certain of the history of Patricks down East.

The ZA-10465 plate might be late/post war. Not sure where the ZA Number would place it time wise. There is a photo in one of my books somewhere of an MB/GPW with a 19-Set in a back corner and one of these plate setups is installed on top of the set. Haven't been able to retrace the damn book yet to see if that photo will help clarify, or muddy, the waters further.

David

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Hello Tim. Yes that could be one and the same clip, though not totally certain at this point. Does the bottom of your plate have the same identification stencilled on it as Patrick's and the one here in Winnipeg?

So far, we seem to be aware of two variations on this item, these two in Canada are one and a second one Chris has ID'd from WFTW. If they are an evolution from one to the other in some way, or two distinctly different plates intended for differing specific usages, we are not yet certain.

It does not help at the moment I am without a working scanner. In Bill Gregg's 'Canadian Military Vehicle Profile Series'. Profile No. 5 for the Carrier, Universal, No.2 MkII*, there is a Ford of Canada photograph (U.C.W. 68) showing a plate installation along the same lines, mounted on top of a Mk II 19-Set. This plate has no folded edges front and rear and seems to be equipped with carry straps similar to those found on the larger Carriers No. 23. Quite different from the ZA-10465 ones here in Canada, but Chris will have to look at the Gregg photo to determine if this version matches what is in WFTW, or is yet another variation.

Interestingly, there is a Canadian Army publication dated October 1944, that provides comprehensive coverage of all the 19-Set equipment in use at that time. This plate is not listed at all, nor any other like it for that matter. Yet two show up postwar in Canada, one out of Minto Armoury here in Winnipeg and I am not certain of the history of Patricks down East.

The ZA-10465 plate might be late/post war. Not sure where the ZA Number would place it time wise. There is a photo in one of my books somewhere of an MB/GPW with a 19-Set in a back corner and one of these plate setups is installed on top of the set. Haven't been able to retrace the damn book yet to see if that photo will help clarify, or muddy, the waters further.

David

I had some success looking for "Round Wire Circlip" although most hits were for "snap rings". There are a couple of variations, supposedly used for shafts, and one of them is a dead ringer for the type used on the WS19 ancillaries.

If the "October 1944" publication is EMER Tels FZ256/3, it's a "Parts Identification List" and is nowhere near an exhaustive list, I'm afraid.

The stores codes (VAOS numbers) were issued in sequence as items were added "by Army Orders" as far as I'm aware. The early ones are an exception to this, since the original VAOS was simply an alphabetical list until they realised numbers would be much more efficient from a catalogue and ordering point of view and numbered the existing stores vocabularies sometime between 1938 and 1940. (That's why some very odd items (WW1 spark transmitters and early WW2 sets like the WS1 and WS11 have close stores numbers.)

WS19 MK.1 had stores code ZA.3155.
Satchel, Signals had stores code ZA.6292 despite being introduced 1n 1938.

WS19 Mk.II has stores code ZA.10178
WS19 MK.III has stores code ZA.10479

That would imply that the plate in question (ZA.10465) was introduced around the time the WS19 MK.III was being designed (developed during 1942, when the number would be allocated, issued in early 1943). It may well be a "general purpose" plate that replaced a variety of specific use items to reduce the number of individual stores items that needed to be carried.

It does not help matters that some items were allocated new numbers at various times!

Aha! Carrier, Set, No.25 is ZA.10463 so that plate would have been introduced at the same time, probably specifically for use with this carrier as it has the rectangular cut-out at the left-hand end to clear the end of the set retaining strap. An earlier plate would not need the notch as the clamping straps remained below the top of the set.

By the end of WW2 the numbering system had reached somewhere in the region of 30,000 (WS62) and was heading towards 50,000 in the 1950s when the NATO Stock Number took over. (The VAOS "Section" has survived as the "Domestic Management Code" or DMC to give storekeepers a clue as the where to look for stuff, so you now see Z1/nnnn-nn-nnn-nnnn (etc.) on items.)

Chris.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

I have one of these plates... no bolts... if someone is making the bolts and the retaining spring clips, I would definitely be interested in a set.

Ditto here. I need to check if they are 2BA or 3/16" BSF - Wireless for the Warrior drawings claim 2BA cheese head screws but there are "inconsistencies" in the drawing (it shows an early plate, with only 6 holes for the aerial base and no cutout for the strap, with an adapter plate and Larkspur J1 box).

I think we may have two varieties:

Plate & Bracket Assembly No.1, with one set of holes to take aerial base, variometer and a single sized control unit. Used with Carrier No.1 (or 21), and possibly with the (British) WS19HP, when it sits on top of the RF amplifier. (For that you need another bracket on the top of the supply unit to take the Condenser X5, 5kV for protection against overhead cables.)

There may well be other plates (e.g. one to take a double-size control unit (3 or 3A, I think) on top of the set for the Daimler Scout Car (Dingo)) with different sizes and hole patterns for other installations.

Plates, Mounting, No.1 with two sets of holes (some common to both orientations) and a rectangular notch for Carrier No.23. This can be used for LH or RH installations in, for example, an LCV.

There was an enormous amount of specialised mounting hardware (without considering limited field adaptations for special purposes or 'D' Day invasion vehicles), and most of it was probably smelted as the vehicles were sold off.

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

Long shot here...

Is it possible that when the WS38 AFV was mounted on top of the WS19 in a Tank, it would have been onto one of these plates?

Very, VERY unlikely. There would have been carriers specific to the WS38AFV manufactured - they made a couple of different types for the non-AFV install in the Churchill, after all - but they're not in the 1957 "Carriers Set Various" Illustrated Parts List, which is something of a bugger.

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

Wondering if I should be installing this plate when I put the WS19 into my Firefly in a couple of years time.

Definitely not. The plate is specifically for a demountable set in a 'B' vehicle. Your Firefly will have a presumably modified Sherman install, with the standard "Variometer mounted vertically and aerial feeder No.4 through the turret roof". There's a Centurion Mk.V install shown in WftW Vol 2 with two carriers, one on the supply unit to take the AFV supply unit and LF Amplifier, the second on the set to take the WS38AFV. This might be Carriers No.37 & 38 which appear to have the correct shape and late WW2 stores codes (ZA.26339 and ZA.26340 with later fixings). Firefly may well have used something entirely different.

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

EDIT - Is it possible these bolts/screws, are the same as those which hold the WS19 control boxes to the back plates? The spring clips appear to be..

No, the control unit screws are entirely different, and hex heads make a lot more sense for the mounting plate.

Regards,
Chris.

[Tim Bell]

Chris

Thanks for the info.

I got the plate to install with my WSC as indicated in Pamphlet "Wireless Sets No 19, 19 HP, 19/19, HP/19 in Trucks 15 CWT, 4x4 Personnel and Trucks, 15 CWT, Half-Tracked, Personnel", "Fitting Instructions", Jan 1945.

In this there are some line drawings which appear to show the plate mounted on top of the WS19 and also on top of the WS19 HP... and in the manual there are frequent references to the ATU and Control box being mounted with screws on...

Wireless Sets No 19, Plate, Mounting No 1.

Alas no ZA number given for this part.

However, I then acquired and fitted the Canadian WS9... so the plate never got used.

I will retain the plate though as in the short term, it may be the only way I do get to mount the WS38AFV... though initially to keep things simple (and given a lack of documentation and pictures) I will only install the standard WS19 set up... and also, a lack of suitable bolts to attach it to the top of the WS19 make using it a bit harder too.

Cheers

Tim