'Owning' Military History

[Wayne Henderson]

I would hope the statement of the Lt Col is not taken out of context but here comes my opinion of how the military cares for it's history.

They don't. Examples...

10th Light Horse.
Turk 105mm gun captured during the Beersheba Charge.
Left to rot in Kings Park Perth.
Given to volunteers (RAAHS) to restore when beyond restoration, at their cost. Only the barrel remains, lost.
I rescued the front shield from the scrap for my personal gratification.

Swan Barracks Naval Guns.
A pair of 1880 naval guns.
Restored by volunteers at their cost. When finished a fight broke out between Navy, AWM, Army and Albany Fort as to ownership.

Army History Unit.
A joke, an arse covering exercise.

The Artillery Barracks museum funding fiasco.

2009. RSL wanted WW1 truck for 2014 parade.
I found 1917 FWD but had to restore this at my own cost.
RSL said their budget was spent on organisation and promotional material by 2010.
RSL rang in 2014 to ask for a loan of any WW1 vehicles we had.
T model Ford was supplied by a Lt Col (RT) (dec) and a group of volunteers.

Sabre jet in Raymond Terrace, is that still there?

The Airforce cadet Vampire Project. Sad, Sad, Sad.

Anyone remember the fate of the WW1 railway gun?

International Acco Wrecker
Tried to save this one as it had just been serviced before decom.
Engineers turned it into a recovery aid.
One year later received a request for a International Truck from the AHU Good thing we saved the twin booms and gear off the back.

Anyone ever tried to get a Staghound of a firing range, legally.
Personal gratification for over two years.

RSL paying to put on Anzac Day marches, wtf

I have plenty more.

To be fair, the good...
The AWM, only 3000kms from here.
The graves and shrines around the county and overseas (guns not included)
Bandiana (when open)

Bugger off

[Mike Gray]

Good comments all. Our Canadian Government feels that cheaper is better. And puts our Canadian Forces at risk. Recall the purchase of the Oberon Class submarines. These things were museum pieces when we bought them. Who in their right mind would actually sail in one? All were scrapped as unseaworthy.
The one on display in Rimouski, Q.C. was bought as surplus for a whopping $4.00.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Wayne Henderson

I would hope the statement of the Lt Col is not taken out of context but here comes my opinion of how the military cares for it's history.

...

Army History Unit.
A joke, an arse covering exercise.

...

Bugger off

The Canadian Armed Forces has a Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH). It is mostly civilian academic historians. Do you see any vehicle restorers on the staff list? Note in their mission statement that their activities are in support of government policy.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-.../index-eng.asp

[Mike Gray]

Bruce,
Well said. Your dedication and ability at preservation and restoration of history is appreciated by so many.
The 'First World War Comes To Life' group, out of Lindsay, Ontario, maintains and restores a stunning collection of WWI vehicles and equipment. Most of which have never been seen before. Their first display of the season was in February. Admission was by donation to local food bank. They served up period food from WWI as well. Also free.
I believe the amazing collection of Gulf War AFV's and re-enactors that was at Aquino Tank Day in Oshawa last year is owned and funded by a private collector. It would otherwise never be seen either, if left in the hands of government departments and institutions.
Who is in a better place to recover, restore and display our military heritage?
We are.

[Private_collector]

Here, here, Mike!

[rob love]

In fairness to the General, here is his complete post:

8 March 2016
Log Books
It’s interesting that there are three requests on the 3 Cav site for information about the ‘history’ of M113A1s that have been allocated to RSLs. One would have expected the log books to accompany the vehicles. I’ve suggested that the RSLs ask Defence for them.
If Defence hasn’t included the log books as part of the vehicles, then one hopes that they’ve been sent to Archives. In retrospect this would’ve been the preferable thing to do with the Centurion log books.
Presumably the log books were considered part of the vehicle and therefore accompanied the tanks sold to the public. Unfortunately the purchaser of the tanks later on-sold all the log books as a single lot to a private collector on a confidential basis. This collector now refuses to provide any details regarding the history of these tanks, eg. that owned by the Cairns Arty and Tank Museum.
The only Centurion log books now publically available are those at the AWM. These are for tanks which were supposedly disposed of as range targets … their log books went to Archives and thence to the AWM. (Unfortunately the log books for the tanks in the Tank Museum and elsewhere within Puckapunyal have simply ‘disappeared’.)
This raises the question (more a moral one than anything else) as to the extent that private individuals should be allowed to ‘own’ Australia’s military history for personal gratification.

Now he may have been talking about ownership of military artifacts, or he may be talking about the fact that a private individual ended up with the centurian logbooks and won't share them.

Note where the log books that were sent to the tank museum aren't....

I say it all goes to the planning and preperation of the governments in power. Save the history while it is still relatively fresh. It's not fair game to claim them back 50 years later, or put restrictions on the sale that were not there in the first place, thereby depriving the owner of the full market value of his investment.

[Mike Cecil]

Unfortunately, Rob, Lt Col Bruce Cameron MC (rtd) has not done his research. The statement :

"This collector now refuses to provide any details regarding the history of these tanks, eg. that owned by the Cairns Arty and Tank Museum."

... is simply wrong. I know for a fact that 'This collector', as he describes him, regularly provides information to both public and private museums (including the museum in Cairns) and to individual owners when requested. He just doesn't see the need to grandstand about it on public websites to appease the likes of Bruce Cameron, for the simple reason that it is nobody else's business but the 'collector' and whomever he is corresponding with.

Sadly, there are a number of statements on the Armoured Advocates blog that are in error, the above being just one of them. I didn't feel any need to waste the time of anyone on this Forum by discussing them.

Hence, my original post was about the more general 'moral' question raised by Cameron, which I thought was an interesting one. I have to agree with the majority of respondents that govts and public museums have severe limitations when it comes to preserving the full range of a nation's military history. Thank heavens there are avid collectors who act as the custodians of what the various governments discard!

Mike

[maple_leaf_eh]

I get a sense of moral outrage that some private citizen has chosen who can read the books in his library. So what? The books are papers, bought and sold to whoever had the most money at the time of disposal. The fact that they are now privately held doesn't seem to register with the LCol. The current owner has unique and privileged information. If someone asks nicely, I'm sure the two can work out a way to share it. However, if the requester is hostile or demanding, maybe the response is equally uncharitable. Give and get.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

The Canadian Armed Forces has a Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH). It is mostly civilian academic historians. Do you see any vehicle restorers on the staff list? Note in their mission statement that their activities are in support of government policy.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-.../index-eng.asp

I had a chance to have a Professional Development visit to DHH. They are busy with everything Past Present and Future. That does not include vehicle restoration or artifacts, in the conventional sense.

DHH's Navy CPO1 explained just one of their challenges. Who issues regimental colours? They do. (Heads up - RCD's your guidon is ready.) Who gets new ones embroidered? They do. Who researches and monitors production all badges, crests, insignia, flashes and accoutrements? They do. Who controls the official symbols, like base flags and brigade patches? They do. Where are the physical records for operations kept? There. What happens when units go off on their own? Chaos and unapproved symbols. Sure it looks right, but there is the equivalent of copyright on the parts of an official symbol.

As I stated above, DHH has academics. They control the records they have. One worker commented that one group of records only starts in 1968, when one function changed from the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps to a central office. If he wants to get older information, he has to go to a militaria show and buy it. This is the situation the Australian LCol was griping about. Is it wrong for information to be in the public realm? Is it better looked after? Dunno, but I would not begin to expect that organization as it is currently mandated, to hold an example of every vehicle or piece of equipment Canada ever issued.

[motto (RIP)]

I long ago realised that we are only temporary custodians of the items that come into our hands. Some custodians are superb in their endeavours to collect, preserve and display. Some struggle to look after what they have and some are deplorable in being no more than hoarders who expend nothing on preservation and allow artefacts in their care to decay into oblivion. We've all met them. I am troubled by one at the moment who has a unique device that he will not part with and will not look after. Would I want the government to intervene at any level? No way! Governments have proven without doubt that they are as adept at incompetence as any private individual. The wider the dispersion of materiel the better the chances of some of it surviving. It is not an ideal world. The Colonel ha s his opinion and I have mine.

David

[Mike Gray]

Dave,
Unfortunately, you are correct. We have all met them. They collect and hoard because they can, and these things never see the light of day again. However, they only represent a small percentage.
Recently we acquired a stunning and complete RCAF Women's Division uniform, WWII. Medals with it. It will be on display for anyone to view. We have her name, place of service, even her service number. Found in the inside pocket of the tunic. We would very much like to put a face and a story to her service. (The request for info is posted here in the Your Relatives forum).
Seeking any information on her from DND, Directorate of History and Heritage and National Archives Canada is like running into a brick wall. Apparently she never existed.
All we want to do is return the medals to the family.

[45jim]

Interesting thread. Upon re-reading the original comments that started this thread it appears the author is more concerned about the disposition of the "history of a thing" rather than the "thing" itself. In that he is probably correct.

The "history" should be maintained in a public archive open to all as "the public" paid for that history through effort and tax dollars. The history itself really has no monetary value that can be realized at the time of disposal (that value only develops over time) and there are tangible reasons for its retention. That is in a perfect world.

The "thing" itself is just an asset acquired to fill a need and if the need no longer exists or the item is obsolete then it should be disposed of and new assets procured. The Government should do all it can to recover the most it can from the scrapped or surplused items so as to lessen the burden on the taxpayer. The taxpayer should also have the ability to purchase these surplus items and re-purpose them for civilian use.

Thankfully, items were surplused and private citizens re-purposed them and preserved them for us to acquire and restore. Museums of all types rely on the private citizen, they provide the funding, they volunteer their time and they often provide the artifacts that would have been lost to time without their efforts. Its a thankless enterprise, but governments will never do it.

I was really intrigued by Rob's statement that Canadians have no "property rights" could you elaborate? Just as a discussion not a legal opinion.

Just as an aside, the US government spent billions on the Saturn V rocket to launch their moon missions. After the missions were complete, there came a need to retain this new and expensive technology and that meant a huge amount of work. Drawings had to be converted to CAD from paper, special materials developed for the program needed to have all that data archived so they could make it again if required, special processes developed needed to be transcribed and a team of people kept on staff to keep the specifications up to date as new materials were developed and old ones obsoleted. Faced with that cost, the US Government and NASA decided just to let it fade. The had the unused rockets to set up at museums but couldn't make another Saturn V if they needed it. Preserving history isn't just the "thing" there are many other facets that need to be preserved for posterity.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by 45jim

Interesting thread. Upon re-reading the original comments that started this thread it appears the author is more concerned about the disposition of the "history of a thing" rather than the "thing" itself. In that he is probably correct.

The "history" should be maintained in a public archive open to all as "the public" paid for that history through effort and tax dollars. The history itself really has no monetary value that can be realized at the time of disposal (that value only develops over time) and there are tangible reasons for its retention. That is in a perfect world.

A perfect world, indeed: for example, much of the data surviving today on Royal Netherlands Army Sherman numbers etc. came from two men who collected vehicle registration numbers. They copied the data from cards which were slated for destruction after the vehicles were struck off charge. They could not have the cards, but were allowed to copy the information. Then they were destructed by the Army. Sadly not all cards could be copied as they had to write down the information on paper, photography was not allowed.

Just as an aside, the US government spent billions on the Saturn V rocket to launch their moon missions. After the missions were complete, there came a need to retain this new and expensive technology and that meant a huge amount of work. Drawings had to be converted to CAD from paper, special materials developed for the program needed to have all that data archived so they could make it again if required, special processes developed needed to be transcribed and a team of people kept on staff to keep the specifications up to date as new materials were developed and old ones obsoleted. Faced with that cost, the US Government and NASA decided just to let it fade. The had the unused rockets to set up at museums but couldn't make another Saturn V if they needed it. Preserving history isn't just the "thing" there are many other facets that need to be preserved for posterity.

Back in the mid-1980s, various projects were launched to build those wooden sailing ships as the Dutch used exploring and conquering the world back in the 17th and 18th century. 300 to 400 years ago they were churning out these ships by the hundreds without power tools, computers etc. In this day and age it takes much much longer (years versus months) to build a replica, and the best shipwrights were breaking their heads over some of the construction features, even when they could rely on period drawings and ship wrecks. The expertise, both in engineering and construction, has been simply lost. As mankind, we should strive to preserve just that, learning from how things were done in the past to prevent making mistakes in the future and to further mankind's knowledge.

Just ask yourself: what could modern military vehicle acquisition programs learn from the Canadian Military Pattern vehicle design, manufacture and use?

Just my EUR 0,02 worth

Hanno

[rob love]

Originally Posted by 45jim

I was really intrigued by Rob's statement that Canadians have no "property rights" could you elaborate? Just as a discussion not a legal opinion.

Property rights are not entrenched in our country. While an individual cannot steal your property, the government may take it without compensation. For instance if the provincial government decides that they have the mineral rights to all lands, without compensation to the owners of the surface rights, then the owner is S.O.L. If the government decides that a certain guns should be forfeited to the crown, off they go without compensation.

Here is a page that describes the current situation in Canada: http://propertyrightsguide.ca/are-pr...-canadian-law/