CMP prototype photos wanted please

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The book series are 'All Systems Go' at last...my Editor wants high-res or original copies of the 1937-40 prototype CMP photos..Ford and Chev, and also any early 1940 trucks please without the ventilation holes.

Credit will be given and terms to be agreed!

E mail

[cliff]

David the only pics I have of early stuff without the ventilation holes is of my Ford cab 11 that I owned in NZ years ago and it is just a rusty old unrestored truck.

If you want the pics though I will send them to you, just let me know.

PS> glad the books are coming cause it is long overdue. Is there any word on proposed release date as I am drooling over them now

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Cliff, please send anything through...it's an early Ford #11 Cab and it therefore shows an early truck, and may be suitable for the book.

Basically it is all systems go...I am suggesting up to six books at least, and can I make a sounding out now? It is suggested that Professor Alan Earnshaw will host a military vehicle seminar in London next year similar to the Dr Gregg one some years back. We hope to launch my first book in the series at the same time and have a big shindig. Perhaps we can borrow some CMPs? Also M-Cs etc.?

[cliff]

I have 4 pics of the truck as I found it. I will scan the photos and send them to you untouched as I do with my model article photos.

regards
Cliff

[Bill Murray]

David:

And I tread very softly here so as not to offend, but of all the books you have mentioned over the last year or so, have any been released yet? I am not only looking forward to them for myself but am sure I wish to carry them in my store.

Rolland Jerry (spelling) from Canada did a small series of articles on prototype CMP vehicles in a now defunct, I believe, newspaper format publication maybe 20-25 years ago. Lots of good pics and he may be able to help if he is still around. I think he lived in Ontario Province Canada. I have the articles somewhere here but the photos are really crappy quality and not usable for a book but I assume he has/had the originals and may be willing to share/lend them for your book.
Cheers
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Bil.. got that..in OLD AUTOS I think it was or OLD CARS. Sorry matey but the draft text was submitted some time ago but the publisher was saddled with a series of railway books written by an author whose English is worse than my 7 year old son's! All resources have had to go into these books but they have now ben concluded and it's all systems go!

However, publishers are few and far between these days and those that are want to pay peanuts...this publisher I hope will do the honours. Aftare all it was over a year ago that we had a meeting to start the ball roling. That said I have new photos and new insights since then so perhaos it was a good thing.

Rolly Jerry and I dialogued before his tragic death through Cancer and he sent me several photos that I have had copied and am using. He got them from Sid Swallow. I just wish we knew where Mr Swallow's photos are these days.

[gordon]

.... I've seen at least one (poor) image on here of the Dodge CMP prototype...

Anyone have any more info on it?

Gordon

[Bill Murray]

I think Cliff has such a pic. Cliff????
Bill

[cliff]

yes I have one picture of this and I have only ever seen the one photo as well. It is not a very good one as Gordon says and I did get it from a web site that I can't remember. So sorry can't shead anymore light on this one but like Gordon I would love more info on it so I can convert an Italeri 15cwt kit into one.

Cheers
Cliff

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by cliff
yes I have one picture of this and I have only ever seen the one photo as well. It is not a very good one as Gordon says and I did get it from a web site that I can't remember.

You guys mean this one on Colin Stevens' CMP site? It's a picture of a Dodge 4x2 CMP prototype from the AEDB Design Record.

H.

[cliff]

yes Hanno that is the one. I will remember Colins Site and credit him with the pic from now on.

cheers
Cliff

[Bill Murray]

That is the one I was thinking of also and it is on Cliff's Mr. Roo photo collection on Armorama.com. Most interesting and I have only seen that one picture and no data or background. Anyone have anything??
Bill

[Pete Ashby]

David

I have a few shots, didn’t I put them on them disk I sent you some time ago?

Here's one from Nigel Dawe he has a few more of C30 ect, I guess you want them on disk?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Any photos please in colour may be useful for the books please.

DAVID HAYWARD
FAIRVIEW
THE DROVE
LOWER COMMON ROAD
WEST WELLOW
ROMSEY
HAMPSHIRE SO51 6BT
UNITED KINGDOM

Thanks!

Pete..I forgot to add I am sorry..I really appreciate your photos. I do like the settings and the quality of the external resto job! I have the photos saved onto my hard drive and will pass on copies to the publishers for them to look through.

I am totally indebted for all those guys that have sent/lent me photos for the series.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Most interesting and I have only seen that one picture and no data or background. Anyone have anything??

Since the picture came from the AEDB Design Record, I guess it has some background info on it as well. Could anyone of members on this forum who have this publication please look it up for us?

Thanks,
H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I received in the mail yesterday a rough draft layout showing how the text/captions/photos are to be arranged. The layout will be landscape, and there will be a good mix of pix and text. However I was very impressed at the repro quality of some of the photos, especially the official shots...a coupe of Bedfords were included as they were to hand and I hope that buyers wil appreciate the effort put into enhancing the originals to make them suitable for printing. That said there are of course some photos that will have to be included and are not of top-class quality.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
high-res or original copies of the 1937-40 prototype CMP photos..Ford and Chev, and also any early 1940 trucks please without the ventilation holes.

Rolly Jerry and I dialogued before his tragic death through Cancer and he sent me several photos that I have had copied and am using.

Pic below comes from the article 'Canada's Wartime Prototypes' by Rolland Jerry, published in Vintage Canada, vol.5/2 of March/April 1978 (thanks Brian!). It shows a 1937 Ford 4x2 15-cwt infantry truck, which Sid Swallow took to Camp Petawawa for its trails.

Also, check Colin Stevens' CMP site for a picture of a line-up of six of these trucks. Colin has a good number of early wartime pictures of pilot vehicles, and some pictures of surviving vehicles as well. Worthwile to include in your book!?!

HTH,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I just wish we knew where Mr Swallow's photos are these days.

Have you contacted the Library and Archives Canada?

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Pete..I forgot to add I am sorry..I really appreciate your photos. I do like the settings and the quality of the external resto job!

Here's some more of them:
http://www.oldcmp.net/f8nd.html
http://www.oldcmp.net/cmpsrus.html

[Bill Murray]

Morning guys:

I dug up my printed pages from the AEDB CDs and although I found the Dodge pic twice, once in a page devoted to cab types and one full page pic, I found no mention of the Dodge CMP in the text parts. I cannot remember just now if I printed off the entire content of the two discs and will have to review the discs themselves possibly tonight.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno, that photo came from Sid Swallow but I regret that Rolly never sent me a copy as I assume that he gave Sid the originals back. He sent me copies of Southampton Plant photos thank goodness!

The 15-cwt was the 1937 built Ford although I have not yet seen the 1937 GM of Canada 15-cwt. I assume that it looked like the 50-off 1938 G/S trucks, one of which is featured on Colin's site and is now in theory in Vimy House. As you know Ford were supposed to supply 25 or so, and GM 25 but they elected not to quote, and Oshawa produced the whole batch at enormous cost per unit, although with all the warranty claim work GM were very heavily out of pocket. The other pilot batch was the 1940 Ford 15-cwt. G/S trucks as per Gary Mooney's in Blueprint for Victory. Those were one step away from the true CMPs, and the 1938 Chevrolets were a dead-end. That is save for proving that the standard design front axles and king-pins were just not up to what was required in a military truck design that had to do off-road work. In that respect, thank goodness the company found out before production started!

It is those originals or better copuies than Dr Gregg's book's that I am after please! Likewise the1938 6 x 4 ATs, that begat the F60H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
It is those originals or better copuies than Dr Gregg's book's that I am after please! Likewise the1938 6 x 4 ATs, that begat the F60H.

Again have you asked the Library and Archives Canada? I would be surprised if (copies of) these official shots would not have ended up there somehow.

Alternatively, Vintage Canada was published by the National Association of Antique Automobile Clubs of Canada Corporation. Maybe they can help?

If all else fails, I'll happily lend you my copy of Rolland Jerry's article so you can see if the publishers are any good at copying printed photos.

H.

[Pete Ashby]

Here’s a picture of an early F15 that was at Beltring one year, note the 2A1 body. I had the opportunity to buy this truck some 16 years ago un-restored from a previous owner. It had an interesting history in so much as it was very low mileage and had been used as a run about on a large Berkshire country estate that had been taken over by the SOE during the war. The story went that the truck was left behind when the unit pulled out at the end of the war. It then worked for a couple of years in the estate wood mill before a fault with the distributor put it into the back of the shed where it stayed until bought at sale in the mid 1980's. The truck was totally original when offered for sale to me.

David this ones on the CD I sent you
Pete

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
It had an interesting history in so much as it was very low mileage and had been used as a run about on a large Berkshire country estate that had been taken over by the SOE during the war.

Pete,

I'd seen a picture of CBW 70 before at http://www.autogallery.org.ru/m/cmp15.htm:


But it was your remark that triggered me to recall it was featured in some back issue of Wheels & Tracks. It turned out to be in the same Readers' Forum of W&T 25 (October 1988) as a 1943 F15 with equally interesting history.

Surely CBW 70 must be the most likely contender for the oldest surviving F15, if anything else the oldest one in running, restored condition?

What "sensible offer" did Paul turn down?

Regards,
Hanno

[Pete Ashby]

Hanno,

How's that for memory, not bad for an ageing gentleman like me. I had completely forgotten it was in WT's.

Paul was indeed the man, he was an early stalwart in the Berks and Oxon area of the MVCG as we were then and I was the Area Secretary.

The jeep mentioned in the text went to Tony Oliver; those with an interest in German vehicles will know this name.

Sensible offer?........ £500 to the punters.......... a bit less to me,………….. At the time I had just acquired the F8 FFW in the picture else where in this thread, it came as a kit of parts on a trailer and a set of tea chests. Trying to find out what the thing should look like was almost impossible.

The world of CMP restoration was very much fringe then, and early stuff was nearly non existent.

It was all Jeep, Dodge a few GMC's but not many and a handful of 13 cabs and a few stalwart British truck restorers, we were all restorers then, we had to be!!.

Remember the world was not at our finger tips in terms of forums such as this and access via e-bay and the web to suppliers and dealers all over the world at the touch of a button. It was very much a case of Wally Wheatly or nothing for CMP's, and Wally didn't advertise.

As a result I have to say that I passed the truck up, although there is never a month goes by when I don't think about that decision. It's good to see it now has a good home because it did change hands a number of times before it found its present home.

Pete

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The rego appears to be from Oxfordshire County Council, and late 1946. Regrettably the rego does not appear in my listing.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The 1938 Model 15-cwt G/S Chevrolet truck now in the War Museum has a build plate! It was as I suspected chassis 815312808 Engine # T1,270,622 and originally had number D.N.D. Z 38-1-42 being issued to the P.P.C.L.I. [WINNIPEG, MANITOBA]

The plate says:

General Motors of Canada
csl 17-52 model 15-31
Serial number - 8153102808
Engine number -T1270622
Body serial number -DND 6
Trim -special
Paint FC 26

The bodies were numbered # DND 1 to 51..note 'FC26' for the paint!. It was decided to paint the new vehicles in National Defence Service Green No.22, Dulux paint. A colour plate of the special paint was sent to the Body Tool Department at Oshawa accordingly.

Now although the chassis number suggests a Model 1531 Chassis with Flat Face Cowl 3/4 to 1 ton 131 1/2 in wheelbase, the '17-52' suggests components were used from a 1938 Model Maple Leaf 2 1/2 ton COE Chassi With Cowl 108 in wheelbase! This suggests that HD COE front axles were used in which case they were likely TIMKEN-DETROIT!

I have no idea what the wb is of this truck...so I have asked! 108 or 132 inches?

[cmperry4]

Here's a snap I took a few years back of the previously referenced Ford prototype that went to the Royal Canadian Artillery Museum at CFB Shilo.

If you wanted a better picture of the truck in its present condition, you could contact the curator Clive Prothero-Brooks, if he isn't already among your contacts.

This is reduced about half from my actual image file size:

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Mark, that's one of the 40 or so [can't remember off hand how many] 1940 Model Fords ordered in 1939 as 15-cwt G/S trucks. I have found very little written evidence about them but there is enough in the DND papers to prove that these were ordered after the 1938 Chevrolets, and after all the complaints came in about the '38 trucks' shortcomings! Could you please send me a copy of the original if convenient, just in case? I have a high-speed Broadband connection.

These trucks were the immediate and direct predecessor of the true prototype DND-pattern truck, which was either an F-GT or the 4 x 4 15-cwt that features in Dr Gregg's book, featured at the back of the Windsor plant opposite Detroit. Anyhow, note that front end design that accorded with WD Spec. 36, and the 'cycle' fenders. You can see that it is just one or two setps away from the production version, with fenders attached to the sides, the deletion of the side louvres, and the change in engine access provision from what appears to be a central hinge to a removable plate.

Does anyone have a photo of the front end of an a MCC quad and Guy Quad-Ant to compare with the early F-GTs please?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Does anyone have a photo of the front end of an a MCC quad and Guy Quad-Ant to compare with the early F-GTs please?

David;

There is a picture of the front end of a Guy Quad Ant, from an earlier thread, located here.

Hope this helps.

Cheers