Bren Carrier- Supreme Court of Canada decision

[Robert Bergeron]

Gentlemen,

I recently ( yesterday ) at work came across this decision from the Supreme Court of Canada concerning a collision between a car and a Bren Carrier ( i.e. a Universal Carrier ) on a public highway in Ontario.

Here is the link: https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/sc.../2/document.do

Tell me if you experiment problems opening the link and i will give you the reference number and year it was reported.

So happens the driver of said Bren Carrier was motoring away at an unsafe speed on an icy public highway, lost control ( skidded ) and hit a car with ensuing damages to the car .No word on the damages suffered to the Carrier . Fortunately nobody was seriously injured. The Carrier of all the cars or trucks it could of hit , ran into an ambulance.

I have read discussions in this Forum concerning the use of Universal Carriers on public roads. I think i just discovered why we are not welcome to share the public highways with the general public in our tracked and armored toys in Ontario and Québec.

The good folks in British Colombia that allow driving Bren Carriers on public roads are more reasonable and have all but forgotten about this case.

The Justices in their decision have a discussion on proper techniques of driving a Carrier in the snow, sleet and ice .

I wish i had read it before going out on a 3 mile drive in the snow on my private road last week-end . I would of driven slower .

This important historical event should be publicised and lessons learned from it.

Warning ,please do see the humour in my post before getting excited . Thanks.

Good reading .

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Robert. interesting, but me not being good with "legalese", I had some difficulty.
Three comments to wind up the spring;
1. Over here, we are required under the law, "We must be able to stop in half the clear distance". This is a good law. It puts the onus on the driver. Based on this premis:
2. The carrier (8 tons of it! ????Ha! Ha!) was stopped,(momentarily) and the ambulance ran into the carrier. :-) The carrier driver was travelling too fast, but so was the Ambulance driver. Both displayed degrees of negligence.(Evidence stated the ambulance was travelling at twice the speed of the carrier, but the carrier was safer in those conditions)
3. The first case failed to find the "Crown" in the wrong, because the "Crown" was covering it's own backside (don't lawyers swear allegiance to the Crown"?

That successfully wasted some time!

[Robert Bergeron]

Hi Lynn ,

Do you get a lot of snow , ice and sleet in NZ and thus practice in such conditions like we do here ?

Did you like the cross examination of the Bren Gun Carrier driver were he says he is driving with one track on the shoulder for better traction ?

Where else but in Canada would any Supreme Court discuss Bren Gun Carrier driving techniques ? We like Carriers in CA-RRIER-NADA .

Did you like it when they called the Carrier a '' Tank '' ?

I certainly waisted a lot of time at work on this one but hey, i laughed so hard i almost lost a filling !

[rob love]

Ice is bad on a carrier, but for a real thrill try cobblestone or brick roadway. That will sober you up quickly.

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Robert, We see a sprinkle on the hills about 30km away, about once every 20 years. It does happen further south. one of my boys skis, but he lives in the South Island.
If I ever drive a carrier in the snow, it is likely to be because I visited Canada at the wrong time of year. So far, my time on your continent comprises about 1 hour in the LAX.
I guess at 8 ton, it had shifted into the "tank" category?.

[charlie fitton]

Originally Posted by rob love

Ice is bad on a carrier, but for a real thrill try cobblestone or brick roadway. That will sober you up quickly.

or a slight dusting of sand on asphalt..

[maple_leaf_eh]

Interesting geography and road maintenance lesson in this case. The Private was doing a road test on Hwy 17 East of Ottawa between Cumberland and what was once LETE in Orleans. How many times have I driven that road? The cleared path was 24 to 26' wide, which is quite narrow by today's standards. (I think a driving lane is only about 10' wide.) The road was cleared, but with light accumulation and somewhat idcy. Seems reasonable for the results of WW2 highway vehicles which used flat plows, scraper boards and rollers versus highspeed plows and chemical deicers and salt.

[Robert Bergeron]

Hi Terry,

Wasn't that facility ( LETE ) taken over by the RCMP ( Royal Canadian Mounted Police for our foreign friends ) ?

Those were sure the days. Going on a track test on Highway 17 !

[RichardT10829]

Carrier driver negotiated the bend to quick...upon losing the grip he became a passenger in his own vehicle... ambulance driver was also negligent as he should also have been driving to the conditions, had he done so he would have been able to safely react and stop in time to avoid the already crashed carrier.

Summary : army cough up please

Ambulance: training/disciplinary for the driver

[rob love]

Not sure you can say that about the ambulance driver without being there for the collision. As the court noted, a driver is entitled to his half of the roadway. So safe distance does not come into play.

If he was following the carrier, then yes, he has a portion of fault. But when someone skids into your lane of travel, there is not really a speed that you could pre-adjust to unless you were going to stop for all oncoming traffic. Even then people could skid into you. The court had it right: carrier driver was driving too fast for road conditions. The proof? He lost control.

Unbelievable that something like this could make it into the supreme court. As noted previously, the crown would seem to have some self serving interests in this. Even back then, the lawyers bills must surely have come out to more than the less than $500 that the judgement was for. In this day and age, a supreme court hearing will cost you way more than your house is worth.

[Robert Bergeron]

Good comments on Carrier driving and i am taking good note as a i am a new Carrier driver .

Claims against the Crown are my core business today and if i had been handling this one i would of recommended a prompt if not swift payment war on or not.

Had anybody ever heard of a Court case involving a Carrier accident with a civilian car anywere in the world ?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

Did you like the cross examination of the Bren Gun Carrier driver were he says he is driving with one track on the shoulder for better traction ?

I recall having to do this with a 5/4 ton MRT here in Manitoba from Shilo to Winnipeg. The asphalt was sheer ice, we had been in the field for 2 weeks, we were delayed from leaving, and the roadmove was over an hour ahead of us. It was "high lock" all the way with 2 wheels on the black, and 2 wheels on the gravel shoulder. I can't recall if we were doing 90 kmh or 120kmh.......it can't be the second one as that would not have been legal so it must have been the 90 kmh. I do recall that we used up both tanks of fuel for the 200 km trip.

As we got past Portage La Prairie, the 5/4 ambulance was laying abandoned on it's side in the center ditch. According to the driver, the wind hit them and blew them right off the road.

Ahhh, for the youthful days of immortality. Back then, if we were driving the M113s down the trans-Canada, and the RCMP told us the road was closed due to the poor conditions, we woudl just go the rest of the way in the ditch.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Robert

Thanks for sharing this one with us, got to be one of the stranger Military Vehicle stories. Read the case summary from your link, and I will have to share it with some of the lawyers who are into Military Vehicles.

Cheers Phil

[Robert Bergeron]

Very welcome Phil.

This hobby is not just about nuts and bolts, grease and oil.

There is also a little legal '' bullshit '' involved , just like life in general .

As long as the legal bullshit does not take too much fun out of the activity, all is well.

[Robert Bergeron]

Read the damn decision again today and almost lost it again i had so much fun .

The world as changed so much since 1943 .

Still the lawyers are there to pest us..

[Robert Bergeron]

Friends,


Did i ever tell you what my profession was ?

[Michael R.]

Cheer up Robert, things could be worse.

[rob love]

You have one Lawyer in a small town.......he will very likely go hungry. Put a second lawyer in town and they will both do very well.



Robert: Pretty sure I know your profession. There is a TV series named after it, although American based.

[Robert Bergeron]

Spot on Rob.

Happy New Year.

Robert

[maple_leaf_eh]

Upon reflection I was thinking the Private and the Staff Sergeant were riding in an open unheated armoured vehicle. Probably dressed in Battle Dress, Greatcoats, Beaver hats and wool scarves. Wearing nailed ammunition boots or maybe shoepacs on their feet. Knit wool gloves or leather gauntlets on their hands. Possibly goggles to keep their eyeballs from freezing. Damn determined men to be out in those conditions.

[Robert Bergeron]

They were tough brave men Terry.

[Robert Bergeron]

Hi all,

Happy New Year,

I went for a road test today and believe or not i lost control, skidded and went into the ditch with the Mk2 Carrier .

I was on my private road and nobody was around so no danger there.

My brother in law who was riding along got quite a surprise.

The snow on the sloping armor is from the ditch. The front went in quite deep .

I backed out of the ditch no problem but NOW i understand this Court case.

Nothing like a little experimenting.

[RichardT10829]

If your a beginner driver you need to be careful buddy, give yourself a chance...going out straight into the snow could be lethal to you.

Carriers are very unforgiving at the best of times.

Plus the added risk of throwing a track (unless you have ice scrapers fitted )

[Chris Suslowicz]

"Trust, but verify" is fine in principle, but not at the risk of bending yourself or the carrier!

I'm glad you're all OK.

Wishing you a happy, prosperous, and above all safe New Year.



Chris.

[motto (RIP)]

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

Carriers are very unforgiving at the best of times.

As a U/C driver of somewhat limited experience I think a more appropriate description of carrier steering ability would be 'treacherous'. Despite their rugged go anywhere appearance their grip on planet Earth is tenuous at best. Under the right conditions even a fresh cow pat will impede their progress.
Beware!

David

[rob love]

The truck type differential is to blame for the poor traction as far as I am concerned. They are designed to put power to the wheel/track with the least amount of traction, causing it to spin and overall loss of steering.

I remember, years back, having trouble getting my carrier to climb a 3 foot rise of manure and straw so I could park it in the cattle shed. One track would just spin and the vehicle would start to turn sideways.

While I have not driven a T-1
6, I can only imagine that the steering on those, with it's controlled differential, would be less lethal.

[RichardT10829]

Perhaps some quick tips for Robert before he goes out again gents...

My two penneth would be

1) drive no faster than walking pace until you have a full understanding of the handling characteristics of the carrier over a variety of surfaces and weather conditions.

2) your observations and decision making needs to be done WELL in advance, plan your journey then drive to the plan.

3) thumbs out !! Do not be tempted to hook your thumbs under the rim of the wheel... You get into a slide the carriers body shifts the weight over the centre axle thus spinning the steering wheel violently through your hands (unless you are Zeus you won't be able to prevent this) broken thumbs suck !

4) all tight turns are made in 1st or 2nd gear, no higher (from a ww2 vet) best to roll up to the junction, make a slight pause, gear change then turn.

The smooth gear changes come later ! But driving a carrier is a kin to driving a bus over steel ball bearings.... They are lots of fun, but caution is needed.

I am in comparison to most here, a mere learner myself, only covering 1000miles in my carrier over the last year and a half.

[Robert Bergeron]

Thanks gentlemen for the sound advice.

I am all taking it in and will try again tomorrow but slower.

Especially the stopping , changing gear and turning at junctions.

I went off the road into the ditch like i was a passenger and had no control.

Too bad there is not a Carrier driving school around.

Speaking of snow / ice scrappers, where would i get them ?

My tracks were getting packed with snow and it was slowing me down quite a bit.

Thanks. Keep it coming.

[eddy8men]

hi Robert

I have just bought a carrier in Canada fitted with what I would call track grousers, whether they were intended for snow and ice or just general off road grip I couldn't say. they look to be a civvy modification and will be removed by myself once the carrier is over this side of the pond. I would be happy to swap the track with you if you want but that would mean you would not be able to drive your carrier on the roads after the ice has thawed !

[rob love]

The grousers as shown are a fairly standard farm modification. They are actually a testament to the farmers abilities, as normally it can be difficult attaching regular steel to cast steel.