Historic Vehicle Plates: Pros/Cons in Ontario, Canada

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

My interpretation of the Historic Plate is its limited annual mileage clause. Yes, I do roadtests every week during the driving season. But I'd like to have the option of a significantly long roadtrip, without worrying about exceding some arbitrary cap. My road insurance is a rider (?) on my daily driver policy with restrictions of its own, such as no off-road and no driving to work regularly.

As we know, keeping the wheels turning and the engines working is troublesome enough without an additional set of restrictions. So, unless I had something that had bad road manners or was so scarce I'd be afraid of damage, my vote it to plate the Jeep like a car and only deal with the insurance company restrictions.

Insurance is an added layer of complexity to this discussion. Not just liability but fire, theft and vandalism. My household insurance doesn't cover everything with wheels. Snowblowers, bikes and wheelbarrows, but not motorized vehicles. If my parked 'green treasures' are damaged or destroyed they are not necessarily fully insured. I suppose I could argue and complain if my claim would be disallowed, or pay much more per month.

The same company wouldn't insure the M151A2 as a driver because it is over 20yrs old and would have been a new vehicle to them. This is why I had to go to Haggarty, and their policy has limitations.

[rob love]

Manitoba has antique plates, which are only good for parades, events, and to and from the repair shop. No random Sunday drives. It is basically liability insurance, and costs under $100 a year.

The Manitoba Association of Auto Clubs (MAAC) is the umbrella organization that deals with our government insurance company Autopac. If a parade or event is published in their newsletter, then you are definitely good to go. The various clubs will feed their events up to MAAC for publication.

MAAC negotiated for another plate and insurance plan: the collectors plate. A lot more expensive, it combines the insurance required during the warm months with layover insurance for the winter months. It is significantly more than antique plates, requires a safety inspection, and limits the size of the vehicle below 10K pounds.

For myself, there are some military vehicles I drive to work which get regular insurance, and some which only go to the odd display in which the antique plate fills the need. I have not used the collectors plate yet, but may look into it in the future.

I suspect Autopac and the government would just as soon we all drove 5 year old or less vehicles with full safety inspections. Lobbying them for exemptions is very difficult, which is why we have MAAC: there is strength in numbers. Mind you, since our insurance is a government mandated monopoly, getting them to make concessions is difficult.

[Mike Gray]

Lots of great replies and posts here guys about the subject. I can only add by saying we have historic plates on both our vehicles, 1954 M37 and 1967 M38A1. The licence stickers are cheaper (big deal) and our insurance is also. However, 95% of the time we provide our own lift, and trailer to an event. We make sure we are locked down to regulations, otherwise MTO will now be up our ass.
One interesting anecdote. Coming back from Campbellford Legion Anniversary one Sunday morning, 8:30 a.m., maniac cop stopped the Bren Carrier. We were fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle!

[Terry Witiuk]

When transferring ownership of my Ferret, I chose regular plates based on the description/restrictions by MTO for use of a vehicle if licensed with Historic Vehicle plates. I knew that I would be driving it more for pleasure than for parades or exhibition. I figured that if something terrible happened while out on a "Sunday afternoon drive", the insurance company would be quick to investigate and possibly find a way to not cover me. Better safe than sorry. Insured the Ferret through Lant Insurance with Haggerty as the actual insurance company or underwriter.
Cheers, Terry.

[Mike Gray]

Seems there are no definitive guide lines for HMVs in this country, regardless of where you live. I agree with Stuart, perhaps OMVA could step up to the plate and design a draft document and guidelines. Having also been to many vintage vehicle shows, I have seen many of them come up on two wheels when they let go, and nothing happens. Some of them should not actually be on the road. Yet to see a Carrier do that.
However, I can not recall ever seeing an M4 Sherman being stopped and handed a ticket. Perhaps we should just trade in all our stuff and buy a tank.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Mike Gray

Seems there are no definitive guide lines for HMVs in this country, regardless of where you live. I agree with Stuart, perhaps OMVA could step up to the plate and design a draft document and guidelines.

The situation in Canada is the Provinces/Territories are each responsible for things such as the Highway Traffic Act and then further details are further limited by the municipalities. This has resulted in the variation of rules and regulations that we have.

I am impressed by the work that has been done by Western Command in BC who have pro-actively worked with the other players, namely the Province and the insurance carrier. Based on what has been discussed, the BC model could be considered "Best Practice". I feel this type of liaison work, is what any organization that claims to be a Provincial Association, should do.

In an ideal world, if we had a truly functioning Ontario Association, then that organization would be working with the MTO and the insurance industry to make sure that our interests were being taken care of. These issues are best taken care of by the Ontario Association, rather than the individual at the counter of the local Service Ontario outlet.

When you look at the issue of "Historic Vehicle" plates, the MTO issues the plates, and I think the insurance broker that really understands the market is Lant Insurance

Ref: https://www.lant-ins.ca/

When you look at military vehicles with Historic Vehicle plates, they would fall into...

Ref: https://www.lant-ins.ca/collector-car-definitions/

...... " Antique and Classic Automobiles (25 years or older)

Automobiles that are at least 25 years of age including commercial weight collectible automobiles such as: retired military trucks, retired semi/dump/tow/trucks, and retired farm tractors. " ....

They also have a listing of Cruise Nights...

ref https://www.lant-ins.ca/cruise-night...cruise-nights/

and events....

ref: https://www.lant-ins.ca/cruise-nights-events/events/

To me, this suggests that the various historic vehicle clubs in Ontario are already co-operating with the insurance broker, and letting them know about scheduled events. So, if there was a functioning Historic Military Vehicle Ontario Association, it seems to me, some of the process is already worked out.

I believe that this would be a value added service that could be considered by the Ontario Military Vehicle Association.

I would like to hear from the OMVA to see if this is something that they would consider..... If the OMVA, does not think this is a valuable service to the HMV community, then I would assume that this vacuum will most likely be occupied by some of the regional HMV organizations.

Your thoughts?

Stuart

[Mike Gray]

This has been an interesting thread, and the input from others on this is great. I agree with Stuart, that B.C. and Western Command have set up a good model and example to follow. And Lant in Ontario is doing a good job of maintaining some kind of level, but the playing field is not level and there are still a lot of grey areas. Most of us certainly can not road/highway the same speed as other vintage vehicles plated as Historic Vehicle. But, as pointed out previously in this thread, our Bren Carrier was ticketed and fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle, though we were not told it was required, or is it, when Historic Vehicle plates were issued us.

[Harry Moon]

I kind of knew already from previous discussions both on MLU and person to person that we have a great deal with our Vintage plates in BC, the collector plate is also popular with quite a number who have MV's that can get around economically and reliably on your own. Right hand drive, big, or tracked MV's limits just tooling around to the store. Plus right from when I joined Western Command (1998) it has been a very active club with two chapters, Mainland and Vancouver Island. Lots of events, shared load, great participation and it has been a pleasure to be President of for 8 of the last 10 years.
Every odd year we try to do a convoy of at least a week duration and we have sure sorted out every conceivable mechanical and reliability issue and we are planning a big presence at the 2016 MVPA Convention in California.
I'll put this out there now that there are always empty seats and Guests are welcome to contact us about filling a seat or... driving something.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Mike Gray

One interesting anecdote. Coming back from Campbellford Legion Anniversary one Sunday morning, 8:30 a.m., maniac cop stopped the Bren Carrier. We were fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle!

Originally Posted by Mike Gray

But, as pointed out previously in this thread, our Bren Carrier was ticketed and fined for not having Slow Moving Vehicle triangle, though we were not told it was required, or is it, when Historic Vehicle plates were issued us.

Mike, just for clarification..... in Ontario the requirement for the Slow Moving Triangle is not a requirement just for Historic Vehicle Plates.

This is in the Ontario Driver's Handbook

Ref: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...ion3.1.6.shtml

... "The “slow-moving vehicle” sign is an orange triangle with a red border. It alerts other drivers that the vehicle ahead will be travelling at 40 km/h or less. When on a road, farm tractors, farm implements/machinery, and vehicles not capable of sustaining speeds over 40 km/h must display the slow moving vehicle sign. Watch for these slow moving vehicles and reduce your speed as necessary. .....




In jurisprudence, ignorance of the law is not a defence. In the case of everyone with a valid drivers license, it is assumed that they are aware of the rules and regulations, and take all appropriate safety steps.

I would consider it prudent to put a "Slow Moving Vehicle" sign on the rear of a Bren carrier on any public highway. When you arrive at your destination, for display, you could then remove the sign.

What most folks do not understand, is when there is an official "parade", approved by the local competent authorities, the Highway Traffic Act is temporarily suspended on the designated section of the parade route, once the barricades are put up. That is why during a parade, a Shriner can drive a little motorcycle that looks like an airplane....

There are still other complications, such as additional municipal regulations. For example in Ottawa, anything with tracks (Bren Carrier) requires an additional permit ($$$) to drive on city streets. This is aimed at the owners of cranes and construction equipment who can cause damage to roads.

There are lots of fine (no pun intended) details when organizing such events.

With all due respect, I think the peace officer was well within his duties to issue a ticket. It was an unsafe condition.

I would hope that you always carry a break down kit with reflectors and flares.
It would not be unusual for a Bren Carrier to stop dead in it's track, and there is no way you are going to be able to push it off to the side. That much steel sitting on a highway would present a significant risk to any vehicle who slams into it.

I have a nice DND issue and German issue breakdown kit that I carry for just that purpose. Similar commercial units are available at Canadian Tire, Princess Auto, and most truck stop shops.

Stuart

[Gordon Yeo]

Just because you put a slow moving vehicle ( SMV ) sign on a vehicle doesn't absolve you of all fault if your in an accident. The SMV sign, in agricultural use, is used on vehicles of husbandry. That way when some bright light comes out from the towns and cities going 100 km and hits a farm vehicle there is a system set up for the consequences. Farm liability insurance is applied to the listed vehicles on the policy and there are some limitations. So, technically our farm equipment is insured like a truck or car.

Having been ticketed for no SMV on a carrier may be your best out come in that situation. A more in depth questioning, by a maniac cop, might have lead to discovering an unlicensed vehicle with no insurance.

When you go to the OMVA swap meet this fall it will look like a senior citizens outing, I know because I am one. A hand full of the same people have carried the organization for the last many years and they are tired of the job. There are very few young guys coming into the hobby and no one wants to take on the jobs of running the organization. Being a small far flung group of collectors maybe we should join local car clubs and fall under their organization for historic vehicle "protection". If we go to some none club event we should ask for a letter of invitation to parades and shows. That should provide proof conforming to the HVP requirements. Most local car clubs have a spring "roll out" and vehicles can be inspected for defects. These are the sort of things that the HV plate let older vehicle owners keep their vehicles on the road with some sort of over site without being costly.

I don't think that most people with a historic plated car are as annal about conforming to the rules as the thread seems. If you walk around and look at vintage vehicles, on the streets in the summer, there are many vehicles that are not being driven to the letter of the law.

It may be that the historic vehicle plate was designed and implemented with the input and co-operation of the many car clubs that try and keep vintage vehicles operating safely. I don't think that every cop on every corner is looking to jack up every HV plated vehicle, unless the driver is outside the usual traffic act laws.

[Robin Craig]

I 100% agree with Mr Yeo, as I am also a farmer.

The SMV sign is not for your carrier just as he said.

Robin

[Stuart Fedak]

From the MTO


...."A slow-moving vehicle (SMV) sign warns other road users that your vehicle is moving at 40 km/hour or less. Find out if you need one and how to display it on your vehicle......"



Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign

You need to display a slow-moving vehicle sign if your vehicle is not capable of reaching and sustaining a speed greater than 40 km/hour.

Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign include:
•construction equipment
•farm equipment
•street sweepers
•fork lifts
•low-speed vehicles

If your slow-moving vehicle is towing something, you need to display the sign at the rear of the object being towed.

Vehicles that do not need a slow-moving vehicle sign

You do not need a slow-moving vehicle sign for:
•bicycles
•mopeds
•disabled vehicles being towed
•vehicles directly crossing a road, as when a farm tractor crosses a road to move from one field to another
•horse-drawn vehicles driven by people whose religious beliefs do not permit them to use the sign. Instead, the back of the carriage must be outlined with reflective tape visible from at least 150 meters (approximately 500 ft).

Slow-moving vehicle signs are for vehicles only. You can't use them on fixed objects like mailboxes or driveway markers if they can be seen from the road.

Property owners or tenants displaying a slow-moving vehicle sign on fixed objects may be subject to a fine.

Placing a slow-moving vehicle sign

The sign should be placed on the rear of the vehicle between 0.6 meters (2 ft.) and 2 meters (6 ft.) above the roadway. It should be centred from left to right as much as possible.

Ref: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/veh...cle-sign.shtml


Robin, you may be a part time farmer, as is Gordon, that is true. It is not true that the Slow Moving Sign is for exclusive use of farmers (agriculture community). It may be used most often by farmers, as it should as they pull hay bails on trailers using agro trailers that weave in and out as they move-about.

it is for....

Vehicles that need a slow-moving vehicle sign include:
•construction equipment
•farm equipment
•street sweepers
•fork lifts
•low-speed vehicles

Cheers!
Stuart

[Phil Waterman]

My solution to slower than flow of traffic. Is an international orange, air requisition panel covering the tailgate, at least if they run in to the truck they look stupid if the say they didn’t see the truck.

Notice that I said “slower than flow of traffic” one of the problems I encounter is traffic that is as much as 20 MPH over the posted speed. So even if you can do the speed limit there can be a problem.

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and similar threads concerning other locations. Seems that a jumble of rules from Province to Province, State to State and Country to Country is pretty much normal. One of the problems which I suspect is a constant underlying problem concerning antique vehicles is the lack of knowledge of the average officer trying to enforce laws. They just don’t have to deal with antique vehicle laws that often.

Every time they change the laws concerning antique vehicles in my home state there are a spat of problems experience by club members. The more the antique vehicle rules are different from the norm the more common the problem. Examples having inspection month different from registration month and then doing away with inspections for Antique plates older than a certain age. I’m still getting stopped for that one every now and then. Never tell the officer he is wrong, instead ask it as a question, Oh this is a 1945 and isn’t that covered by vehicles built before 1949 don’t have to be inspected?

As a good thought provoking thread

Cheers Phil