Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Big D]

Hi all,

I’ve been following this paint discussion since my last post and I thought this might have been of interest.

As per my previous posts I’m in the process of getting bits and pieces sandblasted and primed now in preparation for painting my AOP Scout Car.

Darrin has kindly sent me some paint samples which are yet to arrive but I’m hoping they will help me sort out a colour match for the Khaki Green and Light Stone or Light Earth pattern I am looking at.

I had a thought yesterday about the paint on the underside of the remaining tool locker door on the scout car. Not sure why I hadn’t thought of it before but I pulled it out today and looked at the paint on the back.

Being in a place not exposed to light and the weather, the surface is reasonably well undisturbed apart from a couple of places where something has been spilt on the paint and a couple of places where the paint is peeling off.

In a couple of areas the top layer of paint was flaking off so I did some work on those to see what was under them. The paint lifted quite easily and was quite flakey in a couple of places.

I’ve attached a few pictures of those areas. These pictures were taken outside in sunlight (not bright) and for the closeups, I wiped the surface with a damp cloth first.

Am I right in saying the top layer is likely to be the pre-1942 Khaki Green applied to the scout car?

Would that mean the darker green underneath would be the U.S. Olive Drab?

I can see what looks like the primer under the darker green where I’ve rubbed further.

This area under the locker door is completely different to the areas I had previously posted on and I don’t think it has been stripped and repainted like the other areas I photographed and uploaded here.

If it is the pre-1942 Khaki Green then that will be a good sample to work from.

I’ll be interested to see how the paint samples that Darrin has sent will compare with this.

[Mrs Vampire]

More on Paint .
I have a spare rear for my Ford Gun Tractor No 9. The paint on parts are pristine on other parts faded .

The paint is perfectly matched to Khaki Green No 3 Australian .
The paint has faded to the all to familiar Yellow that Khaki Green J fades to so from faded paint it is impossible to distinguish KG3 from KGJ.

Keith Webb has identified the part as having been made in September of 1944 which is consistent with the change to KG3 order of Dec 1943. My spare rear was a NOS spare recovered from Hughes trading in Coburg Melbourne in the seventies.

My earlier question was: given the huge stocks of paint held by the vehicle manufacturers would they have persisted with KGJ or followed the order and changed to KG3 ?? .
Although not conclusive evidence to hand supports the view that the change to KG3 was made in Dec 1943(they may have exhausted their stocks of KGJ by Sept 1944 and earlier relics I have viewed from 1944 appear to be KG3 from new. )
If the change to KG3 was made by Manufacturers in late 1943 early 1944 it rather suggests KGJ was able to be toned down to KG3. That also would support my theory that KG3 Australian was a a local colour and not an adaptation of British KG3 which Mike Starmers colour chips suggest was a quite different colour.

Dakin and other archive files make it clear that KGJ was toned down once in mid to late 1942 and again in the early part of 1943 . Perhaps a little bit more evidence that KG3 refers to the third version of KGJ .

A lot more is needed to absolutely nail all of this down but evidence from the artifacts and the archive seem to be pointing in this general direction.

Finally a match between my spare rear for the FGT and Bob Moseley's version of KG3 are identical, suggesting Bob had it absolutely right. I will compare that sample against the colour chip in the Melbourne Archive and nail it beyond question.

I think we are on safe ground with KG3 I am still in need of further evidence on the question of Light Stone and KGJ which I, at this point, think will only be resolved with spectrographic evidence from the archived samples. I am still of the View that the 2pdr anti Tank carrier in the Bandianana collection has it as right as is possible on the current evidence.
I am still of the view that the pre war and early 1940 to 1941 colour was bronze green No 24 as per the British Army specification.

[Mrs Vampire]

Hi Matt

The colours of your carrier suggest to me early KGJ and light stone over-painted Bronze Green No 24 suggesting this was an early manufactured carrier.
If it were made later than say June 1942 the deeper colour is a bit of a mystery to me, save to say the carrier makers may have persisted with the early bronze green longer than The records I have to hand suggest.

[Darrin Wright]

Interesting thread.
My LP1 BGC was produced at Newport Workshops in 1941 and issued to a Signals unit, 4th Div in Sept 41, Balcombe Vic.

There is a near new original paint sample under the dash, with a bit of a wash/clean up; I have tried to take some pics of it for this thread for identification and comparison.
I realise that lighting, camera settings and screen resolutions will/may vary the pictures. I have included a WD-40 can and orange shirt/rag in the pics to provide contrast & comparison.

Also included is my paint stirrer which is darker and I matched that NOS sample at the paint shop, that was aimed for Dec 41 to mid 42.

This sample has not been affected by light and has not been repainted.

Interested in comments.

[Mrs Vampire]

I reckon Khaki Green J early version as per AWM sample cards. Nice if you could get a spectrograph onto it .

[Mrs Vampire]

Some of my theories go down the gurgler as the latest trip to the archives reveals.

In the Mp742/1 series. 325/25/58 and 325/25/9 ( 453113 and 440398).

In may 1943 the specification for three tone camo was dark green , light green and grey. The diagrams do not specify exactly what shades are being referred to save to say the dark green was KG3 .
A tiny sample of KG3 is attached to the specification. Two things of note. The specification ,though being called up in 1943 is a 1940 spec dispelling any thoughts it is somehow connected to KGJ predating that colour by many months .

In file 61/8/20 Helmets Steel No 1 Mk2 specification 1942 the paint colour called for is KG3 .
Though a document identifying the origins of KG3 has yet to be found it is clear that it predates Dakin and the colour samples held in the AWM and other places.
The second thing to note: my samples of Bob Moseley's KG3 is near as damn to the original chip in the file. I have been given access to an original tin of KG3 and will mix up a sample chip from that for a final definitive result.
Where does that leave me in terms of my quest for authentic colours??
Some way to go to demonstrate without question the green on the Stuart was KGJ . No Doubt the Light stone was the Australian version (brownish) not the British ( desert yellow) however the files reveal many vehicles in Australia in 1940/41 were British Light Stone and the British spec is cited.(325/25/58)
I have paid to have the files put on line and will post links to them here when they are .

Big thanks to Mike Cecil for the tip of on the MP742 series. sixteen thousand files ...but the paint one was gold.

[Mrs Vampire]

Further to my last post.

The file referred to earlier BC 440598 contains in it Mechanized Circular 301 ( 2 Jan 1942). That circular refers to vehicles allocated to the AIF being painted Light Stone BSC61. That is vehicles used overseas ( North Africa etc)

It also refers to the use of KG3 being the base colour for vehicles stationed in Australia . My view that the pre 1942 colour was Deep Bronze Green 24 appears from this evidence to be incorrect. KG3 appears to be the initial colour.

The Circular goes on to specify the immediate application of disruptive camouflage. There are seven schemes specified using Khaki Green J , Light Stone N, Light Brown P Dark green M, Basalt Red S and Black U .

Five of the schemes are thee tone and two of them two tone . One corresponds to both the area and scheme of my Stuart.

The three tone scheme in the RAAF Parkes video comprising light stone , Khaki Green J and Basalt red is recommended and allowed by this 1942 order . The order also includes the over-painting of proprietary colours as used by oil companies as seen in the video.

The order appears to be consistent with everything people have observed on their vehicles . Things such as KG3 Being over-painted by lighter colours or disruptive. The variety of colour schemes being discovered that were used from Jan 1942 until late 1943 when disruptive was abandoned and KG3 once again became the standard colour.

The pattern of the schemes is quite precise and the method used to mark it out specified. This is consistent with the Disruptive pattern on my Stuart corresponding to the drawings in the specification.

This means spectrographs of the AWM and AA chip sets remains a high priority for me.

Finally on the matter of KG3 I have been loaned a can of 1944 KG3 by Ewan that i will have a sample made and spectrographed. That will be the final proof so far as that colour is concerned. The question remaining ...what is its origin?

Photos below include one of a LP2 carrier two tone scheme in KG3 and Light Earth attached to the MC301 specification that is not a specified scheme. So still lots of puzzling issues.