Canadian Vietnam Veterans

By Bill Murray:

Evening Karmen:

Thanks for your post too. I believe I have probably read almost every one of your posts but do not remember responding to one.

Then I'm honoured to receive your FIRST RESPONSE Master Bill Murray ... (do you dance? rlated to Athur? )

I have always considered you to be one of the most important contributors here with not only your wit but also your insight. You pose questions and make statements that many of us big tough guys are to timid to ask or bring up. You got a big set, girl and I would hate to meet you in a dark alley with your frying pan. We need a "nanner" icon for this board (the dancing banana that is all the rage for a "kudos" message.

Yikes ... I thank you for telling me your thoughts. Funny, I usually feel like a complete idiot out of my element. As for statements others would fear to make, I suppose that being out of my element I'm not beholden to the same rules of conduct ... and the territory is quite new to me in general ...so I tend to just "say stuff" from the heart usually ... and I know I've inadvertantly offended some at times (I'm sorry ) People in here don't let others get away with anything too out of line or context though. Frying pans abound What I lack for in knowledge and experience ... I somehow feel an affinity for the values and interests that the MLU site and membership is all about. Maybe also I'm just a frustrated soldier who needs to learn how to allow my inner soldier OUT for a change. To stand ground and fight for whats meaningful and feels "right" if I must.

2. Karmen did you mean a monument to vets or dodgers?

Oops ... sorry, that was a typo ... DODGERS it was. Nelson ... hmmmm... rarely think of the place anymore ... but am glad the monument idea raised outrage and caused rejection of the idea.

Since I am rarely serious for any length of time, let me close out this one by telling you Karmen that in addition to all that I have learned from your posts, some of them have a second value to me. When I am over tired and cannot go to sleep, I sometimes pull up one of your longer threads to read and before too long I am dozing
off at the desk.

Bill

Oh??? my my my my my my my

OH... MASTER Bill, how you DO giveth and then taketh away (flirting with my frying pan me thinks. We'll ... "talk" ... again me thinks?)

Karmeen says nay ho ma (sleep well!)

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Psst...Geoff...the clasp is for each subsequent 10 years of service, not 12 years, ie: 1st clasp - 22 yrs svc; 2nd clasp - 32 yrs svc; etc.....

Cheers

Roger that, India call sign.

Also, it's not the "Canadian Decoration"...it's the "Canadian Forces Decoration".

Sunray, update your data bank!:

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Roger that, India call sign.

Also, it's not the "Canadian Decoration"...it's the "Canadian Forces Decoration".

Sunray, update your data bank!:

PRONTO;

We'll have to give the "Old Fart" a break, we have to remember that SUNRAY served when "Centurion" was a rank, not a tank, and that "VD" was a Decoration and not that other thing that sometimes appears the morning after the night before......

INDIA CALL SIGN, OUT!



Bye!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Psst...Geoff...the clasp is for each subsequent 10 years of service, not 12 years, ie: 1st clasp - 22 yrs svc; 2nd clasp - 32 yrs svc; etc.....

Cheers

Thank you much for this... I was only in nine years until being sidelined by circumstances. The rest of you REALLY old guys can bandy about numbers all you want...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Roger that, India call sign.

Also, it's not the "Canadian Decoration"...it's the "Canadian Forces Decoration".

Sunray, update your data bank!:

PRONTO, I was trying to keep it simple for our American friend. Trying to explain to a newcomer that what apparently should be a "CFD" is in fact a "CD" just complicates things. Mind you, that's Canada for you...

by Hairy Beast Mark-O:

We'll have to give the "Old Fart" a break, we have to remember that SUNRAY served when "Centurion" was a rank, not a tank, and that "VD" was a Decoration and not that other thing that sometimes appears the morning after the night before......

What??????

VD/PW SENDS

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
What??????

VD/PW SENDS

A "V.D.", NOT YOU, I REPEAT, NOT YOU....IT IS IN REFERENCE TO A FORMER MILITARY DECORATION....NOW GO BACK TO SLEEP...THANK YOU.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

NOT..... ONE...... COMMENT...... FROM...... ME...... ON....... THIS.....

[JD Baillie]

Oh really?



JD

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
PRONTO;

We'll have to give the "Old Fart" a break, we have to remember that SUNRAY served when "Centurion" was a rank, not a tank, and that "VD" was a Decoration and not that other thing that sometimes appears the morning after the night before......

INDIA CALL SIGN, OUT!



Bye!

Mark...I like that expression of yours...reference Centurion, when it was a rank, not a tank. (Clank, clank...I'm a tank.)

May I have your permission to incorporate it into my repetoire of "bon mots", when the occasion presents itself?

Must have been a bummer to have had that VD post nominal, especially if one was the equivalent of a Med A, eh?

[Bill Murray]

GWB, I cannot resist:

"Keep it simple for our American friend". "Trying to explain to a newcomer, etc. etc.".

Well, living in Atlanta Georgia, I guess I would probably qualify as a card carrying trailer trash red neck. Don't know from 'nothin, don't want to know from 'nothin.

As we used to say in the Corps as well as in many other venues, KISS.


Bill

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Well, living in Atlanta Georgia, I guess I would probably qualify as a card carrying trailer trash red neck. Don't know from 'nothin, don't want to know from 'nothin.

As we used to say in the Corps as well as in many other venues, KISS.


Bill

"KISS" we ALL understand, my friend... but listen, I hope y'all got a mean ol' hound dog to lie about the trailer all day and bark his fool head off at the mailman! I mean, no self-respecting trailer trash redneck sumbitch is complete without a dawg to ride in the back of yer pickup...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
I am so removed nowadays from the active military scene that I do not know if the practice continues but in the USMC, one used to receive a "hashmark" for each 4 years of service which was really only displayed on one's dress jacket as opposed to the regular uniform shirt. I do not remember now if there was a ribbon to be worn on one's blouse shirt. This was only given to what we call enlisted personnel.

In WW2, our soldiers were issued one red hashmark to be worn low on the right sleeve for every year of service. "39ers" - those who volunteered in 1939 - had a white hashmark to denote that year of service. Occasionally we'll see a battledress with a white hashmark and six red ones. That was a man who saw a LONG war, and was bloody lucky to survive.

I'm not sure when the CD came in, but I'm sure one of the more august Olde Fartes here will be glad to enlighten you; I may have served when 'Centurion' was a rank rather than a tank, but THEY served during the siege of Troy.

Interesting about the flag issue. I do not know the significance of the coat of arms on the flag you sell but it does seem to me that the Maple Leaf flag represents what I, as an outsider, well, Canada.

Ah yes, the coat-of-arms. It's simple really, representing what was previously considered the five founding cultures of Canada: The three lions of the English monarchy; the Lion of Scotland; the [female] harp of Ireland and the Fleur de Lis of the French. the three green maple leaves represent the alliance of English, French and aboriginal peoples.

Interestingly, in 1957, the female harp was judged politically incorrect (it was a woman with breasts) and replaced with the musical instrument. At the same time, the green leaves were changed to red (a portent of our socialist leanings?). Then the whole thing was done away with, sacrificed on the altar of multiculturalism which acknowledges NO heritage.

Ref the current flag -- consider it simply "generic".

Give yer dawg a pat for me, OK?

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Five by Five Mr. G.

I am so removed nowadays from the active military scene that I do not know if the practice continues but in the USMC, one used to receive a "hashmark" for each 4 years of service which was really only displayed on one's dress jacket as opposed to the regular uniform shirt. I do not remember now if there was a ribbon to be worn on one's blouse shirt. This was only given to what we call enlisted personnel.

Interesting about the flag issue. I do not know the significance of the coat of arms on the flag you sell but it does seem to me that the Maple Leaf flag represents what I, as an outsider, well, Canada.

As to the query about "vets versus deserters" I think Karmen had a keystroke glitch. That was what I thought she meant. Not to get into a discussion about that but I use the PC correct term of my generation and I believe it is now probably more correct to use the term "protesters" or something like that. As in many cases in this world, time heals a lot of wounds but as a product of my generation, it would disturb me to have a memorial raised to essentially "celebrate" what took place. It almost seems to me to be some folks wanting to make a political statement and using that situation to further their cause. So what else is new????

Before I leave this thread, one more thing about the flag issue.
Am I missing some significance in the layout of the current flag?
To me it is a fairly simple layout but as is often the case the arrangement of colours etc. can have some sort of message that goes totally over my head.
:

Bill

Bill:...not too sure just where I'm hopping into this discussion...many thoughts, many impressions...however;

It's interesting to see that, in one of your posts, i.e. "seems to colour our immediate reactions", that you used the "ou" instead of the "o"...Hmmm, latent Canadian perhaps?

With reference to our flag (and I assume, in context you refer to the current Canadian flag), Yes, there is a message.

The ends of the flag are red. Red is our Liberal (your Democrat) colour of choice. The flag, if it had to have been changed at all, most probably should have been blue on either end, to represent "from sea to shining sea". Blue is a Conservative (your Republican) colour, therefore anathema to the Liberals.

However, the Liberal Federal party at the time, having a Parliamentary majority, ram-rodded this un-needed, un-wanted and generally un-warranted piece of red rag upon us.

Those of us who remember, especially as 11 November draws nearer, reflect upon the fact that the Red Ensign is the symbol under which many Canadians fought and died.

Lest we forget!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Ya know, I don't get a chance to one-up you too often, so I gotta take 'em when I can...

Actually, the U.S. party colours are reversed; red is GOP and blue is Dems. I noted this watching their election, not sure why it didn't occur to me before.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Ya know, I don't get a chance to one-up you too often, so I gotta take 'em when I can...

Actually, the U.S. party colours are reversed; red is GOP and blue is Dems. I noted this watching their election, not sure why it didn't occur to me before.

Interesting too, as Keith Webb pointed out, that in Oz, Liberals are right wing, Conservatives are left wing.

So much for the New World Order and the Brotherhood of Man (excuse me, Copeland)...if we collectively can't get it together politically, how the hell are we gonna do it at all?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
I'm not sure when the CD came in, but I'm sure one of the more august Olde Fartes here will be glad to enlighten you; I may have served when 'Centurion' was a rank rather than a tank, but THEY served during the siege of Troy.

1) - CD came in, in 1949

2) - Not during the Siege of Troy...but when "J.C" was but a Lance-Corporal...........but, my mistake, I forgot that MASTER CENTURION can't remember that far back.....fell out of the chariot once to often did we MASTER CENTURION, those continuous landings on one's 'Noodle' must have had played havoc on the memory did it......

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Mark...I like that expression of yours...reference Centurion, when it was a rank, not a tank. (Clank, clank...I'm a tank.)

May I have your permission to incorporate it into my repetoire of "bon mots", when the occasion presents itself?

PRONTO, THIS IS INDIA NINER SIX ALPHA, PERMISSION GRANTED, OUT.

[JD Baillie]

Jon,

The Maple Leaf was needed and was wanted by many Canadians who thought it was more than time to be seen as no longer part of the British Empire. Whether or not the bars should
be blue or red is no longer an issue after 30 years. That it is ours NOW, is.

In 2004 why would we not want to be distinctive and uniquely Canadian. Our Maple Leaf is not a sop to multi-cult. It is a statement of coast to coast union, a flag that doesn't raise colonial emotions in Quebec (why is the 22e a numbered regiment and not a named one?).

The Canadian Parlimentary system has not evolved since confederation to reflect the needs and changing times of Canada. A majority government will always push things through Parliment. And if the Upper House doesn't like it then the majority government of the day will stack the Upper House with more appointments so the bill will pass on 2nd reading or resubmission. So of course having a new flag pushed at us was the way it would go. In 1925 a parlimentary committee convened for 10 years to come up with an idea for a distinctively Canadian Flag and didn't. All this could have been avoided.

In 1965 it was more than enough time to get on with it.

HOORAY THE MAPLE LEAF!!!!!

K

JD

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
PRONTO, THIS IS INDIA NINER SIX ALPHA, PERMISSION GRANTED, OUT.

Identify I 96 A. I don't recall 96 as a Call Sign. Something like T 41 D I can relate to.

96 wouldn't be the 2 i/c of the Mobile Bath and Laundry Platoon would it?:

If so, typical RCR.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by JD Baillie
Jon,

The Maple Leaf was needed and was wanted by many Canadians who thought it was more than time to be seen as no longer part of the British Empire. Whether or not the bars should
be blue or red is no longer an issue after 30 years. That it is ours NOW, is.

In 2004 why would we not want to be distinctive and uniquely Canadian. Our Maple Leaf is not a sop to multi-cult. It is a statement of coast to coast union, a flag that doesn't raise colonial emotions in Quebec (why is the 22e a numbered regiment and not a named one?).

The Canadian Parlimentary system has not evolved since confederation to reflect the needs and changing times of Canada. A majority government will always push things through Parliment. And if the Upper House doesn't like it then the majority government of the day will stack the Upper House with more appointments so the bill will pass on 2nd reading or resubmission. So of course having a new flag pushed at us was the way it would go. In 1925 a parlimentary committee convened for 10 years to come up with an idea for a distinctively Canadian Flag and didn't. All this could have been avoided.

In 1965 it was more than enough time to get on with it.

HOORAY THE MAPLE LEAF!!!!!

K

JD

JD:...I bow to your superior knowledge of how our Upper and Lower Houses operate, especially with reference to the national flag issue.

En passant, why do you query the Van Doos as being a numbered regiment, without mentioning, for example, the 48th?

The above notwithstanding, I disagree with your post.

Ain't democracy great?

Regards...

[JD Baillie]

Jon,

Democracy is great. I'm glad we disagree.

How's your truck running?

JD

[John McGillivray]

A red rag?

The last person that referred to the Canadian Flag as a red rag was the Leader of the separatist Parti Quebecois.

Jon you keep good company.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by JD Baillie
Jon,

Democracy is great. I'm glad we disagree.

How's your truck running?

JD

Ain't. Stored. Damn. Snow outside. C'mon spring!

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
A red rag?

The last person that referred to the Canadian Flag as a red rag was the Leader of the separatist Parti Quebecois.

Jon you keep good company.

Uh oh...please don't include me with those guys.

My reference was totally in apposition to that which was stated by "les autres".

What is irksome to me is the political machinations which eventually resulted in the adoption of the "red rag", against the wishes of the majority of Canadians.

This opinion is vis a vis the PQ's hyper reaction to the "Imperial" Red Ensign.

'Nuff said...guess we let it lie...unless the Bloc-heads keep on agitating for the Fleur de Lys...if they keep on pushing, there's gonna be a problem, big time.

[JD Baillie]

Jon,

WRT the bloc. Do like Gen McKenzie suggests. Ignore them. They are just trying to piss us off.

JD

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by JD Baillie
Jon,

WRT the bloc. Do like Gen McKenzie suggests. Ignore them. They are just trying to piss us off.

JD

Be careful, JD, and Lew MacKenzie(if he lurks about here).

Take heed of the following maxim...

First they ignore you...
Then they laugh at you...
Then they fight you...
Then you win.

Ghandi

[JD Baillie]

Jon,

Ack.

We'll not laugh at them.. just ignore ignoramouses' ignoble emissions. (That goofball MP)



There will always be room for, and fighting reason to retain Quebec in MY Canada. I hear the Plains of Abraham have not yet become a subdivision where (insert pipes skirling, drums beating, claymores swinging, screaming outraged oatmeal warriors backed up with 1000 stomping Gherkas leading the way for 10,000 mixed infantry from all factions who's fathers have made Canada their home) a peacefull anti seperatist group could gather.
... I guess you could say that is about the way I feel.

JD

P.S. I didn't leave out you zipperheads by accident. Just think you would be better as dismounted shock troops on this one.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
Identify I 96 A. I don't recall 96 as a Call Sign. Something like T 41 D I can relate to.

96 wouldn't be the 2 i/c of the Mobile Bath and Laundry Platoon would it?:

If so, typical RCR.

Intelligence Section - BHQ Coy - First Battalion - late '70s/early '80s

I'm still here... reading and learning but not posting A little focussed on my sister at the moment though so not absorbing all this. Soon though. (sister newly diagnosed with inoperable lung cancer ) I'll be back.

Karmen