The "Z Arm" on CDN Jeeps

[r.morrison]

Gentlemen: Throwing this out for your 2 cents......our group has a 1967 CDN 2 Jeep. Having served in Cyprus, our question is, were these units equipped with "Z Arms" to mount a Browning 1919, or for that matter a Bren Gun. Had a little chat with Rob Love and he thinks not. We have an original here and are thinking of making a couple of repro's. Your historical comments would be welcomed. Cheers......Robert

[rob love]

Not sure where my copy of the installation CFTO went, but I am almost certain it mentioned installation in M38A1s which were in use by militia recce only. I only got to Cypress in 89 and by then we had gone over to the Iltis and in fact withdrew them from service and had converted over to the Pajero fleet of 1/4 tons. Someone here might prove me wrong and show a photo of a Cdn UN Jeep with the side mount, but I don't recall ever seeing one. There is a photo on the net of one from the Ont R museum, but I suspect that jeep is a bit of a fantasy piece.

My own thoughts on it are that if you regularly need a machine gun on a jeep, then you need to replace your jeep with a piece of armour. I believe history has shown me to be correct on this matter.

[Frank v R]

Hi Rob, you would be correct in your comment on the OntR A1 , I do know that the vehicle does NOT have UN history, and the wrong radio (C-42), I have plans to install a dual 524 setup , the museum only had the 42 set when this vehicle was restored, I want to bring more to spec for the mission, I will need 2 of the base plates for under the power tray , Rob please let me know if you can dig some up, as for producing the GPMG arm and pintle I know with a wanted ad here you will come up with some, beware though, there are 2 different ID OD on the pintles and arms, get measurements from the seller first , I would guess this happened due to different shops producing them,

[rob love]

Frank
I'll have a look at my favorite scrapyard, hopefully this weekend. I have pulled a lot of them out of there, but I fear it may be reaching the end of supply. I'll let you know.

Seems to me MLU may have discussed that these were available at Niagara military surplus at one point.

[r.morrison]

Hi Rob ....you're right about the armour part. I checked what photos I could dig up here at home and on the web. One I found from Sarajevo was in reference to a Canadian Iltis, with an M60 mounted on the roll bar, gunner standing in the rear seat area. The other was from the Suez area and although it's very far away, you can see the barrel of a Bren Gun coming out from that area. Can't tell whether there's a mount or not. We'll just keep looking and try and contact a couple of local vets.
Thanks for your help thus far.....Robert

[Frank v R]

further on mounts, the CF did have the M31 and M31C mounts in the M-38cdn and the M-38A1 cdn , some of these came out of Pet. surplus and went south about 10-15 years ago, I have seen photos of these installed in Germany, now back to the side mount , cover photo of Clive's book on the M-38A1 , Queens own had a Reg. Force Battalion at that point stationed out west I believe , that would make that vehicle part of Reg. Force, opinions?

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by rob love

Not sure where my copy of the installation CFTO went, but I am almost certain it mentioned installation in M38A1s which were in use by militia recce only.
...

I opened my file folder called "M38A1 GPMG". The CFTO C-30-102-000/CJ-004 "Installation Instruction GPMG Mount on Truck, Utility 1/4-Ton, 4x4 M38A1, CDN2 and CDN3", is dated 21 Mar 75. The pages I have, do not differentiate which users received this item.

[r.morrison]

So Gentlemen......given this discussion (with a wee bit of wireless side line) would we be safe to say that the unit could have been/should have been/possibly /maybe....equipped with a Z Arm Gun Mount. It's neither here nor there to me. Having a look under the cowling, it doesn't look like there was one originally installed.
For what ever aspect comes out of this....we are thinking of having a couple of units made. We have the exterior mounting plate and the arm it self, but no ammo box attachment (ie: Rob Loves photos of Browning 1919 unit in the "for sale" section of this forum).
Anyone interested in one? Have not figured out cost and shipping at this point.
Will keep you posted and thanks to all who have contributed to this question....Robert

[rob love]

Originally Posted by r.morrison

So Gentlemen......given this discussion (with a wee bit of wireless side line) would we be safe to say that the unit could have been/should have been/possibly /maybe....equipped with a Z Arm Gun Mount.

I think you would be safer to say that a UN jeep in Cypress would not have/should not have, never had the GPMG swing arm. Without some photographic evidence, or at a minimum some anecdotal evidence, then you are just making another fantasy piece.

The ammo tray is also a fantasy item. I put one on my own Jeep, and it was because the M1919 I shoot uses 8x63mm. Since it comes in a larger box than the standard 7.62 NATO can, I had to make a tray to support the larger box. Normally a NATO can hooks onto the support bar on the side of the arm and is kept there by a 1' wide cargo strap.

On the one I recently sold, I think a previous owner liked my idea and copied it. It is certainly much more secure than having the can bouncing off the side of the standard mount.

[Ed Storey]

Thank you Rob for setting the record straight! Primary documentation, photographs, should be the preferred basis of any historically correct reconstruction and not the all too common; could have been/should have been/perhaps/maybe/I like it that way because it is different, fantasy reconstruction method.

Anecdotal evidence is always problematic as there are already too many stories that start with "my Grandmother's best friend's bingo partner once told me that she heard from the garbage man that he saw...."

Fantasy pieces, although perhaps great ego booster for the owner, in the end only muddy the waters when it comes to accurately preserving and recording these vehicles for future generations to enjoy.

So, a photograph of a 'Z' arm on a Canadian UN Jeep will answer the question, until then - fantasy piece.