M-38 CDN (history)

[GJG]

Originally Posted by BCA

Gaetan, It is interesting that you only found 3 mounting holes for the master plate that normally holds the brass dash plates. Perhaps one of the sheet metal screws was broken-off in the hole?
Your CFR number 51-30035 strongly leads me to believe that you have a Willys Overland M38 that was delivered about or after October 1951 (10-51). I have information on at least 6 Willys Overland M38's that were delivered to the Canada. While my information is incomplete, in general:
1. Their serial numbers ranged from 37378 to 38852.
2. The only documented delivered date is 10-51.
3. the CFR's are often 51-33xxx but also like 51-30xxx and 52-30xxx.
4. At least three examples have Vehicle Repair Data Plates dated 1-59 or 4-59 from "23 BW". I do not know where 23 Base Workshop was located.
5. There are variations in the brass dash plates that deviate from standard American Willys M38 plates: there can be either "M38" or "M38 CDN" as model numbers. Also there are references to the Canadian "Operators Manual CDN OM 9-804" and "with Canadian Supplements" on the data plates.

For those of you with Canadian Willys M38's, I am curious to know if there is a there a patent plate on the wheel well behind the passenger seat?

In summary, my opinion is that:
1. Canada received numerous Willys Overland M38's in the latter part of 1951. The brass dash plates often differed the from typical American M38 Willys plates with the addition of references to M38CDN and to Canadian publications.
2. The first 100 Ford M38CDN's were made in January 1952. The earliest documented delivered date is 2-4-52 (F-100006:February 4th, 1952). 2165 units were produced, ending November 27, 1952 but with delivered dates extending until Feb. 25 1953.
There were 2 contacts: Contract E-20 LV7 639 ARMY extended to include roughly the first 300 M38CDN's. The balance were contract E-20 LV7 742 ARMY. Other than the data plates reference I have not been able to determine any difference between the jeeps of these 2 contracts. It might be relevant that approximately the first 300 or Ford M38's did not have the CFR stamped on the front left frame rail but documented simply by a painted stencil on the body.
Any additional information would be appreciated: I have a detailed questionnaire that I can PM to anyone with a Canadian M38.
........... Brian

I have compiled a questionnaire of M38CDN details and appreciated any new information. PM me for details if you have an M38CDN. ......... Brian

Hi Brian
There was no broken screw and the 3 holes were not threaded.
Army procedure is strict. If my jeep is correctly stamped on top of front left rail, how can you accept 51-33xxx (maybe related to US base in Canada?) as CAR number or that jeep stamped with 52-xxxxx was delivered in -51 or that the army forgot to stamp 300 jeep later. A CAR number coming only from painted stencil is not very reliable.
Gaétan

[BCA]

Hello Gaetan,
There are three places on the jeep body pre-punched for data plates. These holes are not threaded but instead use a 3/8" No, 6 sheet metal screw: 4 holes for the data plate mounting plate (on the dash), 4 holes for the patent plate (on wheel well behind the passenger seat) and 4 holes for the fording control plate. I think you mean that there were only 3 holes present for installing the data plate mounting plate on the dash panel.
My guess would be that this was a factory mistake: one of the 4 holes was not punched correctly. When the mounting plate was attached to your dash only 3 screws were used. Later the data plates went missing: lost or stolen.
It is hard to imagine a jeep being produced without a set of data plates. I have information on 9 other Willys M38 Canadian jeeps. They have Willys serial numbers between 37853 and 38852. This is in the range of October 1951 Willys M38 production. I have a note that you mentioned your M38 ownership paper listed the serial number as 38852: A number that makes perfect sense for an October 1951 Willys M38, Toledo Ohio, delivered to Canada!
...... Brian

[BCA]

Gaetan, You ask my opinion on CAR/CFR numbers. I use the term CFR (Canadian Forces Registration) number only because I think it was the later terminology for the CAR (Canadian Army Registration) number. I have accumulated data on 10 Willys M38's used by Canada, 96 M38CDN for which only the CFR is available (observing frames or from ownership papers or from historical photographs), and 257 Ford M38CDN for which the Ford serial number is known (from existing data plates or from ownership paperwork). From this base I have made my conclusions.
I have seen no official paperwork that describes the allotment or procedure for assigning CFR's, but I conclude that:
1. There were 2 blocks of 5-digit CFR numbers allotted for M38CDN and continuing to M38A1CDN vehicles: The first block is 3XXXX starting with 30001. This block accounts for most M38CDN (to at least 32138) and 1953 M38A1CDN vehicles (observed to cover a range of at least 32181-32908).
The second block is 33XXX. Often seen on Willys M38 CDN dated 10-51 or in historical photos (often Germany early 1960's) as well as a few M38A1CDN Willys and Fords.
All known 1951-1953 jeeps CFR's fall into either one of these 2 blocks.
2. The date prefix only refers to the year that the CFR was actually assigned to a vehicle. In other words there will never be both a 51-30001 and a 52-30001.
Stamping Procedures: The common place to find a CFR is on the top left frame rail between the bumper and the grill. There are examples of frame-stamped CFR's stamped for 1951, 1952 and 1953. However, based on my database there is no known examples of a Ford M38CDN with a CFR stamped on the frame CFR between serial F-100001 and F-100300. This is based on 50 known M38's in this range, many of which I have closely examined or discussed in detail with the owner. Instead the frame is either blank or has a very small inspector's stamp: the only source of a CFR in this range has been from surviving decals or ownership papers. There may be a relationship between the lack of stamped CFR's and the early E-20 LV7 639 ARMY contract which I can only pin down as having also extended to about F-100300.
I always expect the un-expected: During service or rebuilt programs it would have been so easy to switch data plates from one jeep to another. There are examples of serial plates over-stamped by someone during service. It is certain that collectors have mixed-and- matched good frames with good bodies+data plates. Many serial numbers or dates may have been mis-read due to dirt, paint or poor eyesight.
I am keen to hear from owners of loose souvenir M38 data plates. The delivered date, winch or non-winch, inspectors stamp and contract number (639 vs 742) is all good information that can help build the story of Canadian M38's, both Ford and Willys.
Any published, original source information is much needed: not just anecdotes about how someone at Ford or elsewhere said this, that or the- other-thing. The only solid evidence for Ford production is the previously- posted Ford 1952 year-end serial number report.
......... Brian
PS: Gaetan: So in your case I assume that sometime in late 1951 (October or later) a Canadian Army inspector, at some unknown army base, stamped your frame "30035" using a number from the pre-assigned batch. He prefixed it with "51", the year he stamped it. He moved on to the next jeep and probably another Willys and stamped it 51-30036. Eventually in February 1952, other inspectors, upon receiving Ford M38CDN's did not stamp the frames, but assigned CFR's as painted stencil's for about 300 vehicles, at which time they realized the wisdom of stamping the frames again. (the first documented "delivered date" for a Ford M38CDN is Feb.4 1952 for F-100006, so the CFR would have been assigned after that). Different inspectors may have been assigned different blocks of CFR's to use.

[GJG]

Brian,
For the 1951 start up production, Ford Canada certainly used all Willys parts, excepted nuts & bolts, which explains the frame serial number. Then in feb. 52, suppliers outside of Willys did shipped directly to Ford and Ford got wheels and tires from canadian suppliers.
It is hard to believe that the canadian army had variations in the stamping procedure. From Robert Grieve published in the OMVA CMP Magazine Issue No. 13, May 1996:
All the Jeeps were shipped from Windsor to Hagersville, ON for inspection prior to military service...
All the vehicles also had a convoy light installed as a field modification, done upon receipt by the Royal Canadian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers.
(see post #1 above, item 4: Robert Grieve citation)

[BCA]

Gaetan,
I will be asking Rob Grieve where he got his information. Hopefully some official documents will become available so answer our questions. For now all we can do is examine as many surviving jeeps as possible. ... Brian