1941 Fordson WOT 2H truck. After 10 years

[Ian Mastin]

Hi Guys,

Just to confirm the No 79 is white on a black background in colour.



Regards
Ian

[Larry Hayward]

A quick look through British Army Markings 1939-45 by Peter Hodges and Michael D Taylor throws up Provost Coy in nearly all the references to 79 on black, whether in NW Europe or the Middle East or Italy.

[Mike Cecil]

Just to re-iterate the Australian context of 79 on black in more detail (the vehicle is, after all, in Australia):

79 on a black background was the unit sign of an Aust Divisional Provost Units 1940-1941. In 1942, Aust Divisional Provost Units were assigned the Unit sign 95 on a black background. This they retained until the end of the war, firstly as the single numeric sign '95' on a black background, and from 1944, '95' as the lower (denominator) with the actual unit number above. (As an aside, Aust SOVOs in 1960 also assign '95' on black to Provost Units.

From early 1942, Aust Mobile Bath Units in any formation (Army, Corps, Division, Lines of Communication Area, District Commands, etc etc), were assigned the unit sign 79 on a black background, examples being:

1 Aust Infantry Division: 105 Aust Mobile Bath Unit;
2 Aust Infantry Division: 106 Aust Mobile Bath Unit;
Northern Territory Force: No.s 115 & 116 Mobile Bath Units.

'79' was also assigned to AIF(ME) Base 1 Advanced Depot Medical Stores, initially with a 2 inch white bar across the bottom, later the 2 inch white bar was deleted (once a Formation sign was issued).

Mike C

[Larry Hayward]

But Mike didn't you suggest earlier that this WOT might have been a vehicle used by AIF in the Middle East which 'returned' to Australia?

[Mike Cecil]

Larry,

Yes, I did. What I have been trying to say is that, just because the sign is 79 on black, does not indicate that it could only be a Divisional Provost Company, as seems to have been the assumption based on a couple of references. Rather, in the Australian context, both in Australia and in the Middle East, there were other possibilities, depending upon where, and when, the sign was applied. I am not saying it is not a Div Provost Company, but that there are other possibilities that should be considered as well.

Mike C

[jack neville]

Mike,

Just checked the engine # of my WOT2H. 6183754. It would appear to fall outside the 60 vehicles mentioned earlier. Any thoughts?

I do have a D model (, or the front half.) which should have a chassis number on the front half of the chassis. Will check that when I get a chance.

[Mike Cecil]

Jack,

Like Ian's WOT2H, I suggest this is another vehicle ex-Middle East, rather than one of the batch of new-ish vehicles (WOT2D?) that arrived in Aust as refugee cargo (and given Aust registrations).

There is plenty of evidence to support the importation of an unknown number (but probably quite small) of WOTs and other pommie vehicles to Australia as part of the equipment of the returning AIF units. The Scout Mk.1 carrier that has been the subject of another thread probably falls into this category. Many retained their Brit War Office registrations and were not transferred to the Australian registration system.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that my impression is that these mostly arrived in the first half of 1942 with the early returning units of the AIF from the Middle East. Units delayed in Ceylon mostly left their vehicles in ordnance vehicle parks there if the embarkation orders are to be believed. Units that remained in the ME theatre (elements of 1 Corps, 9 Aust Inf Div) were re-equipped in mid to late 1942 with more modern vehicles such as CMPs. These units did not return to Aust until late 42/early 43, so I think it unlikely that they would have retained such things as WOTs when all wheel drive CMPs were in the offing. Much conjecture here, of course, so others, please feel free to chime in and voice an opinion!

Mike C

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Jack,

Like Ian's WOT2H, I suggest this is another vehicle ex-Middle East, rather than one of the batch of new-ish vehicles (WOT2D?) that arrived in Aust as refugee cargo (and given Aust registrations).

There is plenty of evidence to support the importation of an unknown number (but probably quite small) of WOTs and other pommie vehicles to Australia as part of the equipment of the returning AIF units. The Scout Mk.1 carrier that has been the subject of another thread probably falls into this category. Many retained their Brit War Office registrations and were not transferred to the Australian registration system.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that my impression is that these mostly arrived in the first half of 1942 with the early returning units of the AIF from the Middle East. Units delayed in Ceylon mostly left their vehicles in ordnance vehicle parks there if the embarkation orders are to be believed. Units that remained in the ME theatre (elements of 1 Corps, 9 Aust Inf Div) were re-equipped in mid to late 1942 with more modern vehicles such as CMPs. These units did not return to Aust until late 42/early 43, so I think it unlikely that they would have retained such things as WOTs when all wheel drive CMPs were in the offing. Much conjecture here, of course, so others, please feel free to chime in and voice an opinion!

Mike C

The 2 WOT2D's Andrew and myself had in 1980 to 85 both were ex CFA units . Found at Redbank , near St Arnud in Victoria , Advertised in restored cars magazine - on a farm . Lucky for us one had its original Van body , non drop sides still in situ . The Div tac sign found on one of them under the paint was the greyhound on boomerang .

A few WOTS did come back from the ME as written the book by the transport driver ........... cant think of the title, but he lists the cab 12 c60'S HIS UNIT came back with, even the reg numbers . These cab 12's were then shipped up to NT .... he said the WOT2 was a rocket to drive compared to the chevies .

I would like to know more about the refugee cargo Morris CS8's . How many and so on . I do have a 1939 aero screen example , a oddity . Most of them found here have cabs and are late 1941 production . Mike

[jack neville]

Mike,

Did you ever do any research or learn anything of the CFA sales? Where and when they were held? It is an avenue of investigation I have thought of exploring. I would think the Amphitheatre WOT could have been among the same batch from Redbank. Only a guess, but the proximity is close.

[Mike Cecil]

Jack,

Not sure what you mean: (1) sale from disposals to the CFA, or (2) later disposal from the CFA to whoever.

The first was, I understand, not so much a 'sale' as 'disposal' to eligible users during the latter part of the war. The CFA in Victoria were considered essential users and disposal was by direct sale to them from the Commonwealth Disposals Commission. A list of vehicles available was posted, and only eligible users could apply for, and choose what they wanted. CFA chose a batch of WOTs. Doctors, farmers, etc etc were all considered essential users, so many were able to get used sedans and the like - there were a lot of used vehicles ex-US Reciprocal Lend Lease, for example, plus the 'orphans' (like WOTs) from the Australian services that had been replaced by better, more modern types.

As to the second scenario, this aspect is outside my area of interest.

Mike

[jack neville]

Sorry Mike that last post was actually directed at Mike Kelly but thanks for your input. I have wondered whether CFA records or old auction accounts still exist which may identify the vehicles and when they were disposed of from CFA use. Perusal of old newspapers would reveal something if there was any way of picking a start date to look .

[Mike Cecil]

That's OK: sorry for being so presumptuous!

As to Mike's comment about the WOT going like a rocket, I was fortunate to have to drive (yea, I know.... some chore, eh?) the AWM's WOT at the time of purchase from the restorer in north east Victoria. We took it for a road run of several miles, and the torque on low inclines was excellent - it would even pick up speed if I 'floored' it. It motored along really well, to say the least. I think that unit was an ex-CFA WOT2D, one of the refugee cargo vehicles given Aust registrations.

Mike C

[jack neville]

I have a 'before' photo of the AWM WOT. The restorer was Alec Duke from Murtleford. You are correct. It was an exCFA truck. Alec helped me out with patterns for the hood and fuel tank shields on my truck. After I gave a couple of parts to the Bandiana Museum WOT, I loaned them the tank shield and they got the Tennix(?) workshops to knock up a set for both of us. It would be interesting to know how WOTs remain. I can account for about a dozen. I have had four.

[Mike K]

The old VMVC web site is out there in cyberspace . The article by Alec Duke

http://www.vmvc.org.au/vmvc1au/vmvc/...c1au/Duke.html

[jack neville]

Mike,

I've checked the number on the lat WOT2H recovered from Wagga during last Corowa. Engine and chassis match . Full number is BB 18F 6182824. Any ino on this one. I still have to resurrect the chassis number on the WOT D remains I have. I suspect that may be one of the refugees.

[jack neville]

I finally rubbed back the number on the WOT 2D remains I have. The chassis number is 6144561. That would appear to fall in the 60 refugee cargo lot maybe.

[Ian Mastin]

Hi All,

Just an up date to what been going on with my WOT, Have striped down the rear tray and sandblasted all the steel parts this was done some time ago now I'm at the stage were I've all most finish rebuilding the new tray, all I've got to do is the tailgate, just need to pay visit to a good friend of my to sore that out, once that's done "tailgate" I'll remove the tray from the truck and start stripping down the cab, running gear and chassis will keep you all up to date when this happens.

Regards
Ian

[Ian Mastin]

Some more photo's guys.


Regards
Ian

[Mike K]

Looking very nice

I think the original wood used on those bodies was a softwood of some kind ? The Morris Commercial version of that body , the planks are 7/8" thick with a beveled edge on the top side . The wood does shrink a tad over time .

Got any idea of the wood they used originally ? They must have gone through a whole forest of trees to make those GS bodies

[John A. Rippingham]

Hello,

All the bodies were built in the same place, then shipped to the various truck manufacturers, i believe the wood used was portugese marine pine. You need a gap of about 1/16th between the planks to allow the body to flex.

john

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by John A. Rippingham

Hello,

All the bodies were built in the same place, then shipped to the various truck manufacturers, i believe the wood used was portugese marine pine. You need a gap of about 1/16th between the planks to allow the body to flex.

john

Hi John

Interesting comment from you. The MCC 15 cwt bodies I have bits of, have cast brass plates on them , announcing " MCC GS body Mk2 " or similar .

Id be interested to know if you have any details of where the bodies were made . May have been a case of the WD supplying the same drawings to various manufactuers , thats why the bodies appear to be so similar'. Mike

[rupert condick]

Hi Ian
Just came across your fordson,
a chap has asked me to tell him where the chassis no and engine number are located. I do not known,
can you tell me?
as regs refugee cargo some vehicle's came in with the stepsister convoy in April 1942,
I would like details of these as I am trying to trace Austin K2y Ambulances that arrived here around that dat, unfortunately, all those sent to Queensland are not recorded in the books,
I have found only 60 listed but then only 35 Austin K2y's are listed(NSW) but I know at lest 54 arrived here.
regs
rupert

[rupert condick]

Hi Ian
I should mention that British WD dos were Sometimes painted under the bonnet,
Just in case repainting covered them up,

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by rupert condick

Hi Ian
I should mention that British WD dos were Sometimes painted under the bonnet,
Just in case repainting covered them up,

I think you will find these numbers are receipt or voucher numbers when they arrive at a Vehicle Depot and were used post war. For instance if the WW2 Austin in your photo had gone through a rebuild programme later in its life and returned to a Vehicle Depot the number would be applied then. I am pretty sure the numbers were not applied during WW2 era. You will find them on many British Army vehicles that were in service in the 1950's.

[rupert condick]

Hi Richard,
the number in the picture is a a pre 1949 number L761926, AUSTIN 3T.GS. (MM?)and post war these would have been on a number plate, rather than painted on the vehicle, in some case's, as with things there are always exception's.

with British Army trucks sometimes also painted on the dash board.
the Australian army tended to paint the vehicle type, and weight under the bonnet during the war,or in the engine bay. a so maybe guess,guess, or hope the vehicle no.
worth a look anyway.
regs
Rupert

[Mike Cecil]

Under-bonnet nomenclature was an Australian Army requirement on new Aust vehicles, and was supposed to be painted on in-service vehicle (but was not always) from mid-July 1942.

The specification did not include the registration number of the vehicle, just the model and year, but sometimes the make was included, for ID purposes.

Mike

[rupert condick]

Hi Mike
the lower picture (circa 1942) shows a refugee cargo Austin K2Y Ambulance (1941) of the 2AACC, NSW Driver Harris.
with the year make and weight painted on the toe board.(light bit under right arm)
(I have seen the original picture)
most Ambulances (Austin's) with 2AACC are in the record books,
those Ambulances in the record books should have both British WD Nos. and Australian Army numbers, painted on the vehicle.
those not in the record books kept the British Army Number, But were reissued without the prefix letter, as those in the 1AACC Queensland.

But despite this some continued with the British Army number in full, and some had names instead, i.e. AUSTIN 1 etc of the 3AACC Victoria.
although against regulations of the time.

this may apply to other refugee vehicles

The other picture is of another or maybe the same Austin Ambulance,(2018)
for better clarity,
regs
Rupert

[DaveBuckle]

Pretty sure that's a diamond python in the engine bay ...
Seriously though - love the truck - were Morris and Ford copying each others' homework tho?! (CS8 v WOT).

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by DaveBuckle

Pretty sure that's a diamond python in the engine bay ...
Seriously though - love the truck - were Morris and Ford copying each others' homework tho?! (CS8 v WOT).

Dave

The WOT2A was I think the last of the 15 cwt 4X2 breed to make it to production, around 1940. The Morris CS8, Commer Beetle and possibly the MW Bedford preceded the WOT2 by some years

[chrisgrove]

And the Guy Ant!
Chris