Modified 25-pounder guns

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

Yes please Hanno ! how many Narrow MkII 's and MkIII's do you know of in Belgium and Holland ?

Rob,

Here you go. This 25-pdr is on display at the base museum at the Oranjekazerne ("Orange baracks"), Schaarsbergen (near Arnhem), The Netherlands.

Full views of the gun, note it does not have the characteristic muzzle brake:


Gun barrel and breech details:


Gun carriage details:


I am not an artillery expert, so please us know if this combination of gun and carriage is correct.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some more views of the 25-pdr on display at Schaarsbergen:





As far as I know, the draw bar elongation attachment was added to enable the 25-pdr to be used with the DAF YA-328 artillery tractor post-WW2:



H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

how many Narrow MkII 's and MkIII's do you know of in Belgium and Holland ?

Rob,

I know of only two 25-pdr guns with the narrow carriage for sure:

1. Mk.2 carriage at the Frederikskazerne in The Hague, see pictures on page 1 of this thread;
   
   
2. Mk.3 carriage at Schaarsbergen (of which I just posted the pictures).

If I recall correctly, I spotted another narrow carriage at the Dutch artillery museum at 't Harde.

Will keep my eyes peeled for any others I might come across.

HTH,
Hanno

[rnixartillery]

Excellent Hanno ,thanks for posting those. There is quite a variation between the surviving examples, the one you have photographed has a very early barrel and jacket minus Muzzle brake and counter balance so it would seem however the Guns came in....... the axles, shield and carriages were converted as is.
This gun also has a standard perch eye fitted and not the swivel type used in the modification.
All good info that builds a bigger picture !

Rob....................rnixartillery.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

There is quite a variation between the surviving examples,

Rob,

Just edited my post above: rechecking the pictures of the one at The Hague, I found it is a Mk.2 carriage, even though the plate on it reads Mk.1 |L|.



Wrong plate? I cannot imagine a Mk.1 carriage being narrowed into a Mk.2.

Hanno

[rnixartillery]

I think we are getting there Hanno ,I know of Four in the UK for sure and possibly a fifth, four MkIII's and a MkII.

Rob...................rnixartillery.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by centurion

There were it seems two types of narrow wheelbase 25 pdr equipments. Those with the Mark II carriage which was an Indian design with a special small diameter firing platform (type 22) to match, and those with the Mark III carriage which was originally a Canadian design change, using the type 22 platform but with the hinged trail and sights modified for high angle firing. Both narrow gauge guns were produced for the same reasons - the Mark I carriage 25pdr could not be got through a DC3 (C47, Dakota) side door unless it was dismantled and it could not be towed on jungle or mountain tracks wide enough to take a jeep but two narrow for a normal towing vehicle. Both carriages could be fitted with any of the following tubes (guns) Mark II, C Mark II, Mark III, C Mark III. In theory I suppose the various post war tubes could also have been fitted bur these carriages were not in use then.

Cross-reference to Indian Pattern FAT thread: here's a 25-pdr on Mk.2 carriage in use by the 15th Indian Corps at Elephant Point, south of Rangoon, May 1945:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Photo No.: SE 3914
Photographer: Wackett F (Sgt)
No 9 Army Film & Photographic Unit
Title: THE BRITISH ARMY IN BURMA 1945
Collection No.: 4700-64
Description: Unloading a landing craft of troops and vehicles of the 15th Indian Corps at Elephant Point,
south of Rangoon at the beginning of operation 'Dracula', 2 May 1945.
Date: 2 May 1945

[rnixartillery]

This picture would suggest that the shields on the MkII and MkIII differ.

Rob...................rnixartillery.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rnixartillery

This picture would suggest that the shields on the MkII and MkIII differ.

Picture caption states: "showing Mark 1 carriage on the left and a Mark 2 carriage on the right". Indeed the shield on the Mark 2 carriage was narrower than the standard Mark 1 - also see the bottom of page 1 of this thread.

As far as I can tell the shield on the Mark 3 carriage was the same as on the Mark 2.

H.

[tankbarrell]

That shield in Robs picture of the MkII is clearly different to the shields on the MkIII guns in other pics. It has no folding flaps for drag ropes and quite a bit of stowage on the front of the shield.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by tankbarrell

That shield in Robs picture of the MkII is clearly different to the shields on the MkIII guns in other pics. It has no folding flaps for drag ropes and quite a bit of stowage on the front of the shield.

Ah yes, I was looking at the width of the shield primarily.

H.

[rnixartillery]

The spares box frame is fitted lower left on the MkIII beside the flap allowing it to open and the Tool box is carried on the rear of the carriage behind the perch. Clearly the MkII has all this carried on the shield in different locations and as Adrian has pointed out minus the flaps.
The reason I am trying to figure this all out is because I have found a MKII carriage/Gun but it has the wrong shield on it.


Rob...................rnixartillery.

[Godwin Hampton]

Quoting from the Handbook;

Page 37

CHAPTER 1 - GENERAL DESCRIPTION
SECTION 4 - MARK 3 CARRIAGE

81. THE SHIELD is identical to that fitted to the Mark 2 carriage.

[tankbarrell]

There is a MkIII at KMS Weert.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

If I recall correctly, I spotted another narrow carriage at the Dutch artillery museum at 't Harde.

Knew I had seen it, even found the pictures I made 5 years ago. Note the gun tube without muzzle brake and the missing No. 22 platform.

HTH,
Hanno

[lynx42]

Here is the plate from my Australian short 25pdr.

As found and after a clean up.



I recently obtained the towing end of the trail and a set of wheels and hubs. I am also to pick up a replacement saddle as mine is pretty rusted.

Regards Rick

[Mike Cecil]

I'm resurrecting this thread to inquire about the post by Centurion (Post 13) where in he states:

"A British version of the Australian baby 25 pdr was developed. Its main difference was that it could take the super charge (recoil system improved) This was the Mark IV gun. It had the same carriage as the Austraian baby Apparently only a very small number were made ..." (my bolding emphasis)

I am aware that the Brits developed an improved cylinder block (ie the buffer and recuperator) for the Short gun, but not that it ever went into production, hence the query. Did it actually go into production? Gander does not include it in his booklets on the 25 pdr, and he does manage to list some pretty obscure types/experiments, and I can find no reference to it anywhere else either.

Two other comments: First: two 25 pdr (Short) were sent to the UK: one during the war (and one to India, too), and one post war as a gift to the Firepower Museum by the RAA Museum.

Second: nomenclature plates on restored guns/display guns are notorious for being whatever was at hand, placed to fit the screw hole pattern. I've seen saddle ID plates on the cradle and nomenclature plates from one Mk of assembly stuck on another, different Mk. of the same assembly, so am always very dubious about believing what they show.

Very interesting thread - the images of the Mk.II and Mk.III carriage guns were fascinating with much more detail visible than I get to see in books. Neither carriage was used by Australia, though there is a single Mk.III carriage held by the RAA Museum, I understand. We'll just have to wait until the new museum is built at Pucka to see it.

Mike

[Mike Cecil]

Gents,

Can somebody with access to an Australian 25-pdr (Short) please make a measurement for me?

I'm interested to know the vertical height of the saddle from the lower edge where it meets the trail to the centre line of the gun trunnion. Inches or mm - I might live in the USA these days, but I can work in either/both forms of measurement!

Thank you in anticipation.

Mike

[lynx42]

I'll have a look tomorrow. Cheers.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Very interesting thread - the images of the Mk.II and Mk.III carriage guns were fascinating with much more detail visible than I get to see in books.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. It proves that "crowd research" by knowledgeable people often leads to interesting publications, albeit not necessarily in "hard copy" printed format. But in this electronic format new insights and facts can be added, so this forum contains many "living documents" which are made accesible to the public by the generous donors (time and money) for well over 20 years now.

Off my soapbox now

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks Rick, appreciate it.

Mike

[lynx42]

Hi Mike,

Looks like 15 inches or 380mm (+ or - 2mm.) Bit hard to actually measure as I had to work out the centre of the trunnion and measure to the top of the brass slide plate where the saddle sits as they are not in line.

Hope this helps.

Cheers Rick.

[Mike Cecil]

Perfect, Rick, thank you.

Regards

Mike

[Mike K]

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C189763

[Mike Cecil]

Nice find, Mike.

I'll bet most of those demo rounds are Charge 1 - the bounce on Charge 3 is a lot more spectacular. Even this footage shows the No.3 getting knocked by the bounce of the left wheel.

Couple of different guns used in the footage, too.

Note that a gun detachment (6) cannot easily assemble/dismantle the gun on their own - two more men are required .

Mike

[Tony Smith]

A few of these are scattered about as memorials, in varying conditions and state of completeness.

These pics show 2 that have had their original wheels removed for mounting. Elevation adjusts from -5Deg to +40Deg. The range scale is unique to the Short.

[Mike K]

Short 25 Pounder: Used to find these in small parks/memorial reserves in Central West N.S.W. There was a example at Cargo near Orange and two more on the roadside reserve towards Eugowra. Wheels are usually missing, maybe a deliberate anti-theft measure !

[lynx42]

Those park photos were good to see. So often the trail end is missing as was mine when I got it from the Belfield auction in 2006.



I need a Range Scale for a short 25pdr if anyone has one. I do have a normal 25pdr. Range Scale to swap if necessary.

Cheers Rick.