Another (suspected) F22 found

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Here's the missing pic of the suspected F22

Interesting photo Keith, I hadn't seen that one before. It's another Fewings Indian production FAT conversion, possibly GS configured originally, like the one below.

Indian Pattern FAT GS configuration.jpg


Just to update this old thread - the vehicle pictured in Hanno's old post at Beltring 2003 was also an Indian production FAT originally, presumably identical to the one above except for the winch.

snck-236140_2003-07.jpg


Another likely F22 candidate yet to be fully investigated is the vehicle below - do we have any more photos/info on this vehicle?

f22_donckers.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Just to update this old thread - the vehicle pictured in Hanno's old post at Beltring 2003 was also an Indian Pattern FAT originally, presumably identical to the one above except for the winch.
Attachment 68728

Another likely F22 candidate yet to be fully investigated is the vehicle below - do we have any more photos/info on this vehicle?
Attachment 68729

Tony,

I know you have given the Indian Pattern FATs and F22 a lot of thought. But, the above two CMPs are what is commonly referred to as an "F22". More specifically, these are C291Q.L-W. chassis with full cabs, i.e. winch-less Ford FGT FAT chassis with No. 13 Cabs and GS bodies.

The first one is chassis serial no. CK-236140, first restored by Brian Nunn and now owned by forum member Lauren Child. The second one is owned by forum member Maurice Donckers. Both can be seen on my webpage with F22 survivors: http://www.mapleleafup.nl/cmpvehicles/f22_reg.html

Indian Pattern FATs are based on Ford FGT and Chevrolet CGT chassis/cowls, and were fitted with wooden bodies built locally in India, and had open cabs fitted with a canvas roof rather than a full No. 13 Cab. I think we should keep the full cab winchless FGT apart from the Indian Pattern CGT and FGT.

I apologize for muddling the water by posting pictures of short wheelbase CMPs (Chevrolets even!) on 20" rims in this thread - my bad

Hanno

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

I think we should keep the full cab winchless FGT apart from the Indian Pattern CGT and FGT.

Apologies Hanno, I was a bit lax with my wording in the previous post. I've amended "Indian Pattern" to "Indian production". It's a bit cumbersome but it's an important distinction as you say. However I'd expand your description of Indian Pattern FAT to include "integral body". That's the key differentiator here, and would exclude a hypothetical open cab GS bodied FAT. It's conceivable these existed in Indian late production, if only due to CMP cab panel shortage!

Of course, it gets even more confusing with Indian Pattern vehicles built outside India! For example, Australian local pattern F30 ambulance - should we refer to this as "Indian Pattern" or "Australian Pattern"...? Nomenclature plate reads: "Truck Ambulance Indian Army Type Aust." Looks to me like an each way bet!

Getting back to FATs, I'd suggest we also need to abandon the term "winchless FAT", particularly in light of recent evidence. It appears to be an assumption based on Brian Nunn's vehicle, which until recently was naturally assumed to be Canadian built. It's now abundantly clear this vehicle was Indian built originally, and that a winch equipped version existed as well. Thanks to Lauren we even have contract card info concerning these two versions, namely C291Q.L-W and C291Q.L-I. Evidently BOTH chassis types were built with full cabs, albeit in small numbers it would seem. Therefore in relation to full cab FATs we need to consider the winch as optional, certainly in Indian production at least.

In relation to the term "F22" - as a latecomer to the discussion I'm not fully conversant with the origins of the term, and my understanding is based mainly on your own extensive work on the subject. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my impression the term "F22" does not appear in any official documentation, and is based solely on chassis stamping in the form F.22 reported on Brian Nunn's vehicle:

Chassis rail:
C291Q
CK-236140
S16389 - F.22

Data plate:
CHASSIS: C291Q.L-W. CAB: FULL
CHASSIS SERIAL: CK-236140
ENGINE SERIAL: 5G-420-F
SM-6389 BUILT NOV-12-45

I gather this led to various theories, the most enduring of which is the existence of a presumed F22 within CMP nomenclature, describing what is essentially an upgraded F15A for use in the FAT role. As such it's a useful working hypothesis and a convenient designation for such a beast. It's also highly probable in my view, given the demonstrated requirement for such a vehicle, as evidenced by extensive use of F15A in the FAT role, certainly in Australian use anyway, where specialist bodied FAT production was abandoned in 1943. As we know of course the FAT evolved in post war years towards GS configuration, ultimately expressed in the 1 ton Landrover, which retained forward control and 101" wheelbase. Furthermore, as discussed in MLU thread "Is the FAT a 60cwt or 15cwt truck", a nominal WD load class rating of 22cwt can indeed be calculated for the CMP FAT, which would indicate the chassis stamping F.22 is no mere coincidence of letters and digits.

Therefore I fully agree with our adoption of F22 nomenclature, recognizing of course that it's a provisional designation only. However we can't automatically assume "winchless FAT" - the winch was optional on other GS configured CMPs, so why not the F22? The more definitive descriptor would be "full cab FAT", and indeed this appears on both F22 data plates found to date, one of which is the winch equipped C291Q.L-I example recorded in Australia by Keith, which is also Indian contract. More recently we've identified a further dozen late production FAT chassis in Australia, mostly in old photographs, but including at least four known survivors, one of which I've been able to inspect. These too appear to be Indian late production FATs, with evidence of integral body in some cases, but evidence also of full cab examples. Of these dozen vehicles at least 7 can be identified as winch equipped ex-factory. In due course I'll write these vehicles up in detail here.

Of course, in light of the Indian evidence, the question now becomes - was the F22 ever produced in Canada? If surviving examples exist, we're yet to present conclusive evidence. Hence my request for photos/info on Maurice Donckers' vehicle, so we can determine Indian or Canadian production if possible, assuming of course it's an F22 as we believe. I note also the reference to another unrestored example in Belgium, which if still in existence would be worth investigating if possible, given the extreme rarity of these vehicles. I must confess I've become quite obsessed with the F22 - I'm even planning to build a replica!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Tony,

I am in a hurry right now, will get back on this subject in detail later.

For now I will leave you with the remark that it seems we will have to go back to the drawing board (literally), because there are some aspects totally confused /mingled up: there was no such thing as "Indian production", for example. Assembly: yes, production: no. The "F22" was manufactured in Canada, period. More about that later.

Regards,
Hanno

[Tony Wheeler]

Thanks Hanno, that would be greatly appreciated. As you say there's a lot of confusion surrounding the F22, and not just in my own mind! It's fair to say the F22 remains a mystery to most CMP enthusiasts. It would be great if we rectify that, as it's an important part of CMP history.

Cheers,
Tony