Chrysler Forward control amphibious

[Robin Craig]

Its been around and offered before, no relation / not connected

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-other/ga...ationFlag=true

R

[rob love]

Has anyone been out to look at this vehicle, or knows it's owner? Is it currently in running condition? Is it road legal? Some prototypes are not. Is the price somewhat negotiable or cast in stone? Inquiring minds want to know.

I remember seeing one of these in the Borden Museum back when I was a young pup, and kind of fell in love with it. Does anyone know if that truck is still in the Borden museum? I note that one website lists 6 as having been built, and 3 surviving, however the Borden unit is not on that list. I also note quite a variance between the shown models, with one appearing much more commercial and resplendent with the Dodge name on the hood.

[charlie fitton]

like the idea, but way out of my price range...

[David Dunlop]

Rob.

Just a thought, but with only six built, is it possible there were some variations in the structure of each, for evaluation of different roles?

David

[Robin Craig]

Dear Rob and others,

Basically I have been able to road register most things, some people just don't have the right approach. Just did another vehicle from scratch to plated and insured from nothing.

This is east of me and I am not going up there nor will I be calling him.

If anyone wants me to do so then I will but you better be serious and be prepared to pay my gas if i give you my time. It would be a whole day there and back.

However, I may be going that way next week for work . . .. .. and might be able to do a side trip.

R

[Bob Phillips]

I believe the proto type vehicle at Bordan is still there, parked outside in front of the museum..BP

[Bob Carriere]

I know the owner and actually rode/drove the beast back in the mid 70s when part of the OUTAOUAIS 4X4 Club.

There were seven prototype made...one was destroyed at LETTE by driving it repeatedly off a loading dock, at speed, until everything cracked. 6 were sold by Crown assets in Ottawa.

One was at Borden..one at the Kars museum, one was advertised on Ebay located on the West coast.... one was photographed in sand color, not top, on the East coast and this on in Cantley PQ.
One unaccounted for.

According to what we were told this one had a modified top and had been used for Photo shoots and was in very good shape. One of the under cargo box water tight lockers on the driver's side was damaged when backing up intoa single car garage wiht the lcoker door open.

It is all aluminium contruction...... independent suspension with modern off the counter parts for U joint etc. this truck came with 1/2 ton of spare parts and extra 14 x 20 tires whcih are now on the truck. On a sandy beach the large tires could drive over your leg without even a bruise.... not my leg but I was there when it happened.

The truck was very scary to drive has you sit in front and above the axle..... driving off the edge of a sand dune in a sand pit really made your stomach come up when you suddenly went over the edge.

Top speed was near 70 mph..... servicing was another storey... you could check fluids by lifting the cab seat which was large enought to sit 4 wide. Note our butts was a lot smaller in the 70s.

Any other repairs/maintenance requires removing the water tight floor panels of the cargo box....and crawling inside the hull..... disc brakes are mounted inboard near the axle gear pumpkin. The front and rear axle have a 3 to 4 inch spacer between the axle cover and the axle gear box..... this spacer is hollow and hollowed to theallow engine coolant to keep the hidden axle gears cool on long runs.

The hull is equipped with manual drain covers which must be installed to allow the hull to fill with water when fording shallow 3 or 4 feet fast flowing streams....or you float sideways...

Once out of the stream the bilge pump will empty the hull very rapidly and will shoot muddy, oily water about 20 feet off to one side. Which was always aimed at the cleanest 4x4 in the club at the time. YOu must remember to close them before hitting the lake.

We scared the bejesus out of a bunch of old Portugese fishermen fishing off the commercial dock in Hull when we drove down the dock to the boat ramp directly into the water...........wheeeee @!!!!

It would float nicely BUT with a scary nose down attitude...unless you had ballast in the cargo box.....propelled with the tires at a good clip. The tail gate is scallopped like the CMP and set up as a boat transom..... apparently a 25 hp long foot outboard motor had been proposed not sure if Lette actually tested one.

Climbing in the cab was made easy by a corrugated sleeve welded on the hub of the front axle... very maneouverable with excellent forward vision. In all our crazy stunts we never got stuck.... the winch was used occasionaly to pull out other club members.

when one considers the exclusiveness of this vehicle........ and the current going price of a M37 at $5K.... the 15K asking is not very much out of range.

From the recent pictures I would not be surprised if the engine was pulled and refreshed ....based on the clean blue paint.... the owner is a super Chrysler mechanic who rebuilds his own dragster 369 engines and if he worked on it I would stake with life on his work.

I will see if I can find some of the 70s pictures in the bush across from the Joachim dam on the Black river bridge.

I hope it gets a good home and gets the preservation it deserves.

Bob C.

[rob love]

Some photos of others I have shamelessly stolen from the net. Second photo is the truck in question showing the left side. I note a fresh panel which could be the repaired damage Bob was talking about.

Note one looks much more civilized and does not seem to have the amphibious capabilities. It was my understanding that Chrysler was hoping to put out a commercial version of this truck as well. Seems to me I have a photo of the civilian one in one of my books somewhere.

Note the civilian type one also has the later large street legal M series lighting. Was this not closer to the model of the one that was in Borden?

Bob, your tales of this truck almost have me hooked.

[rob love]

Found my book with more information. The book is "World Directory of Modern Military Vehicles" by Bart Vanderveen. Here is a synopsis of the entry for more refined truck in a nutshell: " XW350...non-amphibious truck was an attempt to make a more economical and less complex version of the late 60s Ram truck for the CAF. They could be had with or without winch. The military in the end decided to purchase militarized Dodge Power Wagon trucks and the project was terminated in 74/75. "

Note the 74 Dodge power wagons mentioned were in fact pretty much off the shelf W300s painted green and with a superstructure, pintle hook, troop seats and a tarp. I recall it being mentioned elsewhere that they were purchased for the Olympics, but seem to have been relegated to militia use when the regular force got the militarized Chevrolet CK2500 in 1976.

There are 3 decent photos in the book which I may try to post here.

I think one of the moderators will have to move this whole thread into the post war military vehicles section for posterity.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

....and extra 14 x 20 tires whcih are now on the truck.

I thought those tires looked huge. Those are the same size tires used on the Honest John 5 ton launcher, the M114 155mm howitzers, and equivalent to the HLVW tires of today. Those 14.00 x 20 tires are still in production by STA in the USA, priced at around $600 each.

[Bob Carriere]

Bob, your tales of this truck almost have me hooked.

Can be moved and stored at my place free until you are ready to move it West...

The sand coloured picture you have is the one I have seen before used by someone to give rides somewhere on the East coast.....does not seem to have the front winch.

Yes side locker door was fixed but not repaired properly..... its all aluminum!!

The 14 inch tires we run at 13 PSI on sandy beach at Lake David North West of Maniwaki PQ.

THIS THREAD SHOULD BE MERGED WITH A PREVIOUS ONE FROM 2 OR 3 YEARS AGO ABOUT THE SAME TRUCK. Things came to an end at the time as rumours had it that the truck HAD sold...... obviously and sadly the deal fell through...... I hope they kept the 24 v. waterproof kit when they converted to 12 volts.

Baby needs tender loving care !!!!!!

Bob C

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

THIS THREAD SHOULD BE MERGED WITH A PREVIOUS ONE FORM 2 OR 3 YEARS AFO ABOUT THE SAME TRUCK.

You find it, I'll merge it!

H.

[rob love]

The other thread is here: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ous#post184693

But it is not a thread about this truck, but rather one that developed and included some info about this truck because the later XW350 was in the background.

I would suggest this is the thread that should be saved and moved, and we can continue to build on it here. I know I have some further photos of the Borden truck.

[Bob Carriere]

Looking forward to seeign your photos.....

I need to search boxes of actual 35mm colour pictures which I intended to scan years ago..... maybe this Winter.

Let me know when I can pick it up for you...... could drive it half way to your place if you find me a good cab 11..... will switch loads and each go back home smilling.

Cheers

PS seen the pictures now....

[rob love]

Bob
Note that it throws your theory of where the 7 went, since the Borden truck is a whole different model. Or does your figure include the non amphibious later models?

Bart Vanderveen's book mentions under the entry for the Ram that six (of seven ordered) were built...perhaps there never was a seventh?

Does anyone have an idea of how many of the XW350s were built? I recall seeing a MV book that had photos of the civilian one in it, painted a different colour and perhaps a little more refined than the military prototypes, but it has been a long time since I saw that book.

I have started digging for my photos of the Borden truck, but no luck. Man, I have a lot of photos. I will scan and post the photos from the book that I do have.

[rob love]

Found a shot of the Borden truck on the net. The photo credit goes to photographer Andre Blanchard.

The truck does in fact appear to be one of the Amphibious trucks, but with smaller 11.00x20 or perhaps 9.00x20 tires instead of the 14.00x20s.

[Bob Carriere]

....and second hand information.

Yes the trucks had 11x20 for most road travel.

In the 70s we were deep in M37 as a lot had been liquidated after tje FLQ crisis.

My best "recollection" was that seven prototype were provided to DND for testing. All of them were slightly different as they were hand built prototype. Things like doors and particualrly tops all had slight difference in size....parts would not necessarily interchange having been hand fitted.

The story was, and it was much easier to get good information back then, thatone had been destroyed on purpose during testing. At the saem time they were testing 4 and 6 wheel drive Volvos and Land Rovers. They use to road test them by driving to Montreal and back on a daily basis somethimes using the back farm roads between Hwy 17 and the 401 corridor..... 417 did not exist then.
Some were driven on ski hills at Camp Fortune. It was not unusual to see them cannonballing in Eastern Ontario back roads.

For a brief period there was one at the old street car barn in Deschene PQ but we were told that it had been sold to someone out West and alwasy assumed that it was the one that surfaced on Ebay....location BC somewhere.

As far as I know they were all very similar and were all amphibious.

The civilian model, as far as I am concerned, was never submitted to Lette but came as a byproduct of the prototype and had a regular open bottom never intended for amphibious operation. Call is a cheapened version.

One would have to find the actual contract with Chrysler/DND to get the real number.

But if there was only six then it is even rarer and worth more...hahaha

Cheers

[chris vickery]

Smaller tires, Rob, looks like a base mechanic's / museum mechanic's interpretation of whats right...

[David Dunlop]

Rob Love's Bordon photo poked an active brain cell and I did a little rummaging in my photos from Bill Gregg's CMP Conference day trip to Bordon in the early 1980's.

Sorry it is tucked in the background, but is this the same vehicle? I recall we were told it was the latest addition to the museum and as noted, it was sitting quietly with a full set of top bows and canvas cover on the cargo box. IIRC it still had a full set of tools and all the to be expected fiddly bits.

Perhaps someone else who attended took better photos.

David

[rob love]

I had another look at Vanderveen's entry on the amphibious ram, and the photo there also shows the more reasonably sized tires...likely 11.00-20 or even 9.00-20. The tires on the one on kijiji are huge. I know I said it before in this thread about the size of those tires, but I can't imagine driving down a highway with the large ones on.

Perhaps Clive Law needs to have a pamphlet published on these interesting vehicles. He could easily sell a dozen or more copies.

I saw a Dodge US military prototype from about the same era on ebay back in the spring. Seems to me it went for around $3,000. I was quite surprised.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Smaller tires, Rob, looks like a base mechanic's / museum mechanic's interpretation of whats right...

Quite often the museum's would use whatever tires are easily available. When you have to start importing tires out of the USA for a vehicle, the costs really start to soar. Other times, the original tires are just not available. When you start talking 5 vehicles, the costs add up. When you hit 50 vehicles, it really starts to get prohibitive. Sometimes one must live within their budgets. I have not had to cross that road yet, although I will admit to installing bar treads where chevrons should be. I have not installed michelin radials where the earlier tires should be, with the exception of one pair on a M114 155mm towed about 15 years back. End of the day a clean set of tires is a lot more palatable to the public than an old weathercracked or blown out, unsafe set of early tires. We try not to display vehicles on bare rims.

However, in this case, between Vanderveen's listings and Bob's recollections, it looks like the tires on the Base Borden vehicle may well be correct.

[chris vickery]

Understandable Rob, I was just teasing..
On an interesting note, you make mention of value once again.
I suppose it comes back to the "rare" versus "valuable" arguement.
In this case, 6 or 7 oddball prototype vehicles would definately fit into the category of "special". Only the most devouted and true purist would take on such a beast, with it's unique design and questionable parts availability.
As they were custom one-offs, surely many of the components would be hand made (body, frame etc)
A fellow such as yourself would fit the bill of course, with capable hands to make things work or jury rig to suit as the situation may entail...
Back to the question of tires, I assume that these prototypes came with manuals and spec sheets, surely correct tire designation should be easy to find?

[Bob Carriere]

It may not have active military history but they were unique prototype made for our Canadian DND.

Parts for the power train and other mehcanical aspect are all early 70 over the counter stuff.

There is no frame to that vehicle.... the rectangular aluminum bilge housing the power train IS the frame.......more of a unitized construction... heavy guage aluminum welded together as a stiff box.

A frame suspension arms(steel) are bolted to the rigid box. The short axle goes through the hull by means of rubber seals.... on the outside of the hull is the U joint, short shaft then the wheel U joint through to the backing plate.

The only requirement is that the owner knows how to work on, repair or fabricate parts out of aluminum. Which explains why the damaged locker was never properly fixed.

Having recent experience as a contortionist with the Cirque du Soleil would be a great plus if you have to do maintenance on the engine....ei change a water pump!!!!

Doubt that much literature would exists on these trucks except for the manual the current owner is including.... which he obtained years after he got the truck.

So who is going to adopt this "special" orphan.......

Cheers

[rob love]

I spent the last two days working on a M113A2. I'll likely be working on it for another day or two. Everything in the engine compartment requires gymnastic abilities. The engine has a way of sucking you in. You start off working from on top of the wooden trim vane, then you have to go a little deeper and your knees are on the hull. Eventually you are twisted into the compartment and only the legs and boots are emerged.

I brought it in just to replace a bad coolant hose. That job has multiplied about 5 fold, with more and more problems emerging. I found my self cussing several times, but not so much at the APC, as it is just a dumb beast that does not know any better. Rather I was cussing at the guys who did not put it together right over the years. Linkages in the wrong spots, hydraulic hoses routed wrong and against the exhaust manifold, an electrical switch held together with electrical tape....it just doesn't end. To top it off the transmission oil is a frothy pink. I'll change that tomorrow, and hopefully it is just water from someone steaming the engine, and not antifreeze from the oil cooler.

Compared to the M113, I suspect the Ram will be a breeze. Whoops, Freudian slip...that should be "would be a breeze".

[Robin Craig]

As this merged thread has the ability to contain tangents off left and right I thought I would chime in on on that Bob referenced.

The 1970s testing did include Land Rovers, interestingly two absolute prototypes of the 101 Forward Control or 1 Tonne by another name.

I acquired all the remaining test records for those vehicles and all the photographs.

The Chrysler bears an uncanny set of common lines.

I know i'm going off the topic so we should go back to how much of a breeze it is going to be for Rob and his new Ram truck

R

[Bob Carriere]

.... your Freudiem slip is showing.....better pull it up.

Robin..... from memory the LR were sold off in Canada but the Volvo were destroyed rather than selling because the vehicles were not imported for resale in Canada. A few Volvo 4x4 have surfaced since, one right here in Hammond with a cracked intake manifold. Evemtually sold off to a Honda mechanic from Dow Honda.



Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

The other thread is here: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ous#post184693

But it is not a thread about this truck, but rather one that developed and included some info about this truck because the later XW350 was in the background.

I would suggest this is the thread that should be saved and moved, and we can continue to build on it here. I know I have some further photos of the Borden truck.

Ok; not merged but saved to the proper sub-forum

H.

[Jack Innes]

So who is going to adopt this "special" orphan.......

The orphan has been adopted, delivery expected tomorrow!

From cursory inspection of the 1500 pages of descriptive reports on the testing of these vehicles it is definite that 6 were built. The tires specified were 9.00 X 20 & optional 16.00 X20. The truck has the larger tires on it & a set of the 9.00 X 20s mounted on rims with it. There also is well over a ton of spare parts, mostly suspension & drive train, that in a great part have been removed from an other truck. This would confirm the destruction of at least one of the test units during the testing. Most parts are tagged.

This truck, (number 3), had an engine compartment fire during testing & was rebuilt. Consequently lost considerable test time & ended up with about 1/3 of the mileage that the others had.

The 12 volt conversion was only the ignition system, the rest is still 24v & intact. The original parts are with the truck.


The truck runs well, drives & stops but needs to be gone over completely.
The aluminum repairs should be easily tidied up. The pioneer tool rack that mounts over the fuel tank is missing as are 2 of the cargo tarp bows.

If there is interest I can post some detailed pictures once the truck arrives here in Brooklin. Visitors are always welcome if anyone would like to crawl over the unit.

Jack

[Bob Carriere]

Nice to know it will be taken care of...

Cheers

[charlie fitton]

If there is interest I can post some detailed pictures once the truck arrives here in Brooklin. Visitors are always welcome if anyone would like to crawl over the unit.

Wish you were closer, I'd like to be a regular visitor...

f