Armoured Support - South Beveland Oct 1944

[Michael Dorosh]

Why was there no armoured support during the operations in Hoogerheide and Woensdrecht in October 1944? 2nd Canadian Division fought through here to clear the "neck" of the South Beveland Peninsula - the land jutting out to the north of the Scheldt Estuary



I know 4th Canadian Armoured Div was to the left of 2nd Div, advancing towards Bergen Op Zoom. 2nd Armoured Brigade and the Polish Armoured Div were operating south of the Scheldt to clear the Breskens Pocket ("Scheldt Fortress South" as the Germans called it).

Was the terrain simply too flooded?

Was there not enough armour to go around?

Was it not felt armour would be necessary?

The Black Watch attack on 13 October was called Black Friday; one company of 90 men was reduced to 4 and every company commander was hit. A Calgary Highlander officer later recounted that walking over the embankment, it was impossible not to step on the dead of the Black Watch, so closely grouped they were. It took many days of fighting in this area to clear it out, despite the fact the Germans were dug in in open ground.

Nicknaming one part of the area "The Coffin" due to its shape didn't help either!

Anything you can tell me about the use of armour in this operation would be useful.

Thanks in advance.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Mike,

Can't answer you in detail now, but I know the South Albertas were chopped up pretty well in the advance on Woensdrecht, so there definitely was some armour support (one of their tanks sits in the centre of town to this day). Look up their excellent history, and check in TUG OF WAR as well... they might help.

Cheers for now.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Mike
Armour would be traveling along on top of the dykes,sitting ducks..The rest was pretty well flooded..Wouldn't have lasted a lick..
They were actually fighting across the dykes with grenades..The Germans dug in on one side the Canadians dug in on the other..
The polders(Reclaimed land below sea level),where the tanks may have hidden were flooded..
The fighting was pretty well hand to hand,at times, with infantry troops ,on both sides..

[Michael Dorosh]

Ah....should have looked before I leaped. Scanning THE BRIGADE by Copp, it mentions a troop of the Fort Garries supporting the disastrous 13 October attack - but because of enemy AT guns, they could only shoot the infantry onto the first objective.

Thanks for the info guys; nice to see you are still on top of things here, Jif!!

[John McGillivray]

The Canadians did have some armoured support in the fighting around Woensdrecht and the South Beveland Peninsula. This support was provided by the Fort Garry Horse. Woensdrecht is one of the Fort Garry Horse battle honours.

http://www.rcaca.org/r-FGH.htm

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Michael;

The attached map shows the operations of Canadian Armoured Corps units, North and East of Antwerp (Sept-Oct 44).

Woensdrecht is middle left. Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Michael;

Another map showing Canadian Armoured Corps operations - The Scheldt - Oct-Nov 1944.

Cheers

[Michael Dorosh]

Good stuff!

Mark, what is the source for your maps?

8 Recce single handedly liberated North Beveland IIRC, after 2nd Division broke the way open onto the South Beveland peninsula in the latter part of October.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
(one of their tanks sits in the centre of town to this day)

Sorry, the Sherman M4A1E9 at Woensdrecht is an ex-Royal Netherlands Army tank, supplied by the USA in the 1950s under the MDAP. In 1978 it was dragged from a nearby training ground and was restored as a war memorial.

In 2000 I helped local volunteer Ferry Stam to identify the markings for a Sherman II of B Sqn Fort Garry Horse, and it was subsequently repainted as such. So it is not a real Fort Garry Horse Sherman (like the one in Doetinchem).

[Michael Dorosh]

Doetinchem honoured one of our Calgary Highlanders veterans by naming a memorial forest Mark Tennant Plantsoen.

I am led to believe that the trees have been cut down since - do you know if that is true, Hanno?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I stand corrected. I do know I was a bit numb at the time we were there, from a week in Delft to a week in Beltring and all that turf from Vlissingen on down...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh
I am led to believe that the trees have been cut down since - do you know if that is true, Hanno?

Sorry Michael, I have no information on this. According to the Doetinchem tourist information website, two ahorn trees were planted in 1995. The plantsoen also has a freedom memorial where each year those who fell during WW2 are commemorated. As the plantsoen is not a forest but a town park, I can imagine some trees were cut down as part of regular upkeeping? Don't forget we're a small country and like to keep things tidy...

http://www.vvvdoetinchem.nl/cultuur-...gsmonument.jpg
source

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
I stand corrected. I do know I was a bit numb at the time we were there, from a week in Delft to a week in Beltring and all that turf from Vlissingen on down...

Knowing our crammed schedule, I'm surprised you actually remembered that there is a Sherman tank memorial at Woensdrecht

H.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh
Mark, what is the source for your maps?

Hi Michael;

I always forget to quote the sources . Here they are:

1st map - Dragons Of Steel, Canadian Armour in Two World Wars, by John F. Wallace, MC

2nd map - The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps, An Illustrated History, by John Marteinson and Michael R. McNorgan.

Cheers

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Michael;

I always forget to quote the sources . Here they are:

1st map - Dragons Of Steel, Canadian Armour in Two World Wars, by John F. Wallace, MC

2nd map - The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps, An Illustrated History, by John Marteinson and Michael R. McNorgan.

Cheers

Great stuff, thanks again!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh
Great stuff, thanks again!

Cheers!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Knowing our crammed schedule, I'm surprised you actually remembered that there is a Sherman tank memorial at Woensdrecht

Don't be nasty now, you bluidy great Dutch giant... I may be old, but I ain't dead yet...

I'd still like to know what those ancient fortifications on the east side of the South Beveland-Walcheren causeway are...

BTW, have you managed to secure a replacement for the stolen vision block on the Mill Ram yet? (how's THAT for memory... )