Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

There are no unit signs so it could be either the 2/4 or the 13th tanks.

What about 2/8th tanks Gina? This unit served with 3rd Armd Div from Nov '42 through April '43, before relieving 2/6th in NG. Presumably they would have left their Grants behind...?

I believe these Grants seen at Homebush are in their original camo. Much the same pattern seen below in Jan '43. I wonder if 13 in the formation sign position is significant.

028519 SINGLETON, NSW, AUSTRALIA, 1943-01. GENERAL GRANT M3 MEDIUM TANK 3RD AUSTRALIAN ARMY TA.jpg

[Mrs Vampire]

Only the war diaries could resolve that I think.

the 2/8 were detached from the 3rd early in 1943 so I wonder at the division insignia still on the vehicles.

The AWM say this

"In April 1943, after over 18 months of training, the 2/8th was sent to New Guinea, where it became part of New Guinea Force, to relieve the 2/6th Armoured Regiment. This was the 2/8th’s only operational deployment. Using M3 Stuart light and M3 Grant medium tanks, the 2/8th’s main role was to defend Allied airfields against possible attack by Japanese paratroopers. The regiment was headquartered at Port Moresby, where it also had one of its tank squadrons, while the other squadron’s were at Milne Bay and Buna. The regiment also carried out joint training exercises to improve tank and infantry co-operation in jungle warfare. The regiment returned to Australia in February 1944."

If only one squadron was a Moresby then at least one squadron of Grants would have been deployed to Milne .....I would like to see a photo of that !! ( three squadrons A B and C one of Stuarts two of Grants.)

Wiki says: From 15 November 1942 the 2nd Armoured Brigade and the 2/8th Armoured Regiment formed part of the 3rd Armoured Division.[3] The regiment was separated from its brigade in April 1943 and deployed to New Guinea where it took over the 2/6th Armoured Regiment's tanks.[4] The regiment's role was confined to infantry co-operation training and static defence of major Australian bases. As a result it did not see any action. Squadrons were stationed at Port Moresby, Milne Bay and Buna.[2][3] Which Makes more sense and discounts those on the Train at Homebush being 2/8

There are no photos of them in PNG in Grants ands Stuarts I can find it is also inconsistent with the story I have been told that Grants and Stuarts were not deployed overseas post Buna. The Wiki article makes more sense than the AWM one.

So Tony if they were posted with Grants and Stuarts then Maybe but if not the insignia is consistent with the 13th tanks returning post disbandment.

[Mrs Vampire]

This from the Camouflage Committee july 1942.

Australian Archives C1903 whole series.

[Lynn Eades]

This is a very interesting and detailed thread. Here is a paint chart for British std paint colours. it is dated 2004. The last 8 have been added since 1931.
(it says so in the bottom r.h. corner)
I imagine that as the ebbs and flows of the war changed, so the availability of pigments (along with what ever else goes in paint)did as well, and this would have had significant influence on the consistency of colour and also the resultant dried paint.
I have a project coming up, and it appears that the base colour is #22 Light Bronze Green. A friend advises thatwe ( N.Z.) followed the Brits. in military vehicle painting, in 1941.
According to this chart, this colour has been around since 1931 and is to British standard BSc 318 C (what ever that means)
How consistent is this going to be? Will I be able to go to a paint supplier and trust that what he mixes will be correct. Will Dulux, or Altex, or Spartan paint be the same? (somehow I doubt it)
There is a lot to painting, (Iam definately a newby here) and almost every aspect affects the resultant finish.
How many times do we ever see two military vehicles side by side, the same colour? Is "never" a reasonable answer?
There are many other inconsistencies in how the job was done at the time I see as an example in the photos of the White Scout cars,
one carrying a jerry can holder on the side, and so it's diamond marking (excuse my ignorance) is back behind the door unlike the others, which are forward of the door.
G&T This is the most in depth thread I have seen on this topic. Keep up the good work.

[Mrs Vampire]

For what its worth this is the AWMs version of 1942/43 Khaki Green. Given it should be white inside I am unsure how much effort they put into getting this right.

Photo : Remnant of M3 Stuart recovered from Buna Campaign. Repainted ?? photographed 2014

[Big D]

I endorse what Lynn said. Tony and Gina - a great thread and very interesting.

You got me thinking about original paint on my scout car so I put the gallows mount project down for the afternoon (your plans are bang-on Gina) and got some wet and dry out and hit a couple of panels that I hoped still had original paint on them.

Like many of these things I am a novice, and the first attempt I think I went a bit hard and what I think was the original light earth seemed oh so thin as it disappeared pretty quickly.

The second shot is my second attempt which I am still working on slowly. I am using 400 grade wet and dry but maybe I need to go even finer?

Bear in mind this was in the garage and I had to use the flash otherwise the pictures came out too dark.

Does what I have unearthed give any clues? I think I see the remnants of pre-1942 khaki green in the first picture and it is slowly coming out in the second attempt.

[Mrs Vampire]

Hi Darryl

Interesting stuff.

I found that I could not get the smooth finish Tony achieved with mine . I think on two counts , the armour is not such a smooth surface as Tony's door and my Stuart has been more exposed to the weather over the years so not as much is left. (though the runs in the light stone are good and thick) . I also found the 1942 Khaki layer applied at the time of modifications in Melbourne very thin and fragile.

I also found 600 too coarse and use 1000 and spend lots of time. Like you I have not been able to get a direct light shot just yet. But its still an indication.

[Tony Wheeler]

The same thought occurred to me concerning armour plate Gina. I've never inspected it closely but I wouldn't expect it to be smooth like sheetmetal, and that will make it impossible to isolate the factory paint layers cleanly, because they're only a few microns thick. It may help to rub back very small areas and take extreme close ups for analysis on screen. This can be a useful method for revealing very thin paint layers, as seen below. Weathering is a problem too of course. The FGT door has several layers of protective paint, including full gloss DBG, and it was removed from the vehicle and stored in a container for decades. It's not often we get such a good sample of wartime colours to work with, esp. Light Stone.

TONY5162 - Copy - Copy - Copy.jpg


Darryl, your technique is fine, although 400 is a bit coarse as you say. I use 800 grade myself, with very gentle pressure, more like polishing than rubbing. Always wet of course, and pausing frequently to wipe off and inspect. However I suspect you've done as well as possible with armour surface. I'm puzzled by the photo, as I don't see any primer coat. Looks like green directly onto metal, with rust discoloration as a result. I don't recognize the brownish colour - is it wartime paint, and is the vehicle single colour or camouflaged? More pics needed, preferably in natural light if possible, and photographed wet for colour rendition. Also do you have any history on the vehicle?