Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Tony Wheeler]

I'm amazed you can find any pattern at all with those paint runs Gina! Fortunately you can take a bit of license with camo patterns, main thing is to get the colours right. Like you I'm extremely fussy on that subject. In due course I plan to match the '42 factory camo on this door and establish the formula for these two colours with one of the reputable paint companies. Need to expose a large area for accurate matching and give them the whole door, none of this small component nonsense. I don't care how long it takes or how much it costs but I won't settle for anything less than a perfect match, because once it's done it will never have to be done again. I've had a gutful of chasing WWII paint specs and it's ridiculous that we have to reinvent the wheel every time we want to paint a vehicle. These are standard factory colours, just like any modern car colour, and there's no earthly reason why we can't simply ring up and order them. Imagine if panel beaters had to go through this paint matching rigmarole for every minor repair.

1942 factory camo.jpg

[Mrs Vampire]

Great to hear Tony. I am in urgent need of the green as I have started on small components already .

So count me in ony any effort to get it right .

The exact edges of the disruptive camo on the Stuart are not possible to find ...well some are... but the general pattern is still there. I can get to within a few inches of the edges doing a sort of join the dots exercise.

It is very clear the pattern is nothing like those in the archive orders. I am happy with that given the Camo committee was not really established until August 1942 and I suppose by the time My Stuart was painted things were still a bit of a work in progress. Archive photos tend to suggest some variation in the actual patterns.

As to the colours I agree with you they would have been standard. I disagree with suggestions that there was variation on account of local purchases/mixtures.

Two of the main aggregation of tanks on the East coast at that time were around Narrabri in NSW and Murgon in Qld ....I just don't see the local Bunnings of the time having the couple of hundred litres of paint needed to paint the fleet disruptive. Paint was strictly rationed at the time and Oil Based paints of the type used was not at all common .

The army managed to get food Building material ammo and fuel out to the camps ...it seems to me getting some paint into the supply chain would have been easy enough.

The Archive does speak about paint shortages at one point but the order is to delay the process of applying disruptive paint until stocks are available and until that happens to only paint vehicles that have an immediate operational need. No where in the archive is an order to source stocks locally .

So I am with you on the Army using paint manufactured in bulk by the leading paint companies of the day to laid down specifications ....as the little Australian Standards pamphlet above indicates.

Which has a fascinating side effect: if you search for it on line it comes up ! but only to take you to a scam site that leads you to a junk PDF converter....

[Mike Cecil]

Gina,

"No where in the archive is an order to source stocks locally" Actually, not correct: earlier instructions (late 41/early 42) than the period you are talking about do provide latitude to source outside the Army supply chain due to Army's inability to provide paint to units in a timely manner.

Interesting discussion.

Remember, the patterns were not rigid, but provided as a guide only, so lots of variations resulted.

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike I haven't seen that one...I have only acessed the digitised material.

Can you clarify...would that be to paint uncamouflaged civilian vehicles and glossy Army vehicles?

Does it refer to disruptive ?? which I had thought was not introduced on vehicles until late 1942 early 1943.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Gina,

The earliest official MT disruptive pattern camouflage instructions (that I have a copy of) that were issued in Australia for AMF (as opposed to AIF headed for overseas theatres, which date much earlier) are dated 2 January 1942, but advance copies had already been distributed by late December 41. The instruction applied to all Army vehicles, regardless of origin or current paintwork. Similar instructions were issued by RAAF and RAN for MT camouflage. They are all based upon a collaboration between the Dept of Home Security's Technical Director of Camouflage (Prof Dakin), the three services, and State Camouflage Committees.

The early period (Dec 41 to mid-42) saw quite a panic to apply camouflage 'without delay' because of the fear of Japanese attack. It all seems a bit over the top in hindsight, but was real enough to those on the ground at the time: the Japanese juggernaught seemed unstoppable. Things had settled down a bit by the time your tank arrived and was cam painted.

Much of the camo information and correspondence at NAA has not been digitised as it was opened many years ago, long before Recordsearch came into being. If copies are asked for again (and paid for, no doubt) then a digitised copy will become accessible via the website.

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Ok then I will have a look next time I am in melbourne. Is that the MP 222/1 series ?? Or is there someplace else I should look ??

[Tim Lovelock]

Hi all, I'm not sure if I'm chiming in on a topic that has previously been covered. But I have something that might be of help in matching 'original' colours.
I wonder if anyone else has heard of a 'grey card'? It was traditionally used by photographers to perfectly match colours when developing their photographs.
If you haven't heard of one, basically it is grey and reflects a certain percentage of light, and is only sold in one shade of grey. So the photographer takes a photo which includes the grey card, in MPU setting a photo that shows a vehicle colour and grey card in the one picture. If you posted that pic on the forum someone like me on the other side of the planet, with a grey card, develops or prints the picture matching the grey card in the photo to my grey card, any other colours in the photo will therefore match the original colours.
As there always seems to be a question mark over vehicle colours, codes, batch numbers etc. if/ when a vehicle is pulled apart or rubbed back and an original colour found and a picture taken with a grey card (in natural/sunlight) the colour could be matched perfectly by anyone.
I hope this all makes sense and perhaps a thread with images of true colours could be started, if the paint isn't available already commercially.
Cheers Tim

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

earlier instructions (late 41/early 42) than the period you are talking about do provide latitude to source outside the Army supply chain due to Army's inability to provide paint to units in a timely manner.

Very interesting Mike, I wasn't aware paint outsourcing was ever permitted. However it can only have been in anticipation of potential shortage of the new colours introduced in the instruction, not Khaki Green / Light Stone, both of which had long since entered large volume supply in Australia. The instruction itself is predicated on ample supply of this colour combination, featuring in 5 of the 7 schemes specified, and ordered into new vehicle production. In other words no shortage of Light Stone disruptive was anticipated, and as we saw during the next seven months it was running in rivers through every production plant in Australia, being liberally splashed on every vehicle type imaginable! As you say, a little over the top in hindsight!

Three-Tone
1. Light Stone N. Light Brown P. Khaki Green J.
2. Light Green H. Khaki Green J. Black U.
3. Light Stone N. Light Green H. Khaki Green J.
4. Light Stone N. Khaki Green J. Dark Green M.
5. Light Stone N. Light Brown P. Basalt Red S.*
Two-Tone
6. Light Stone N. Khaki Green J.*
7. Light Brown P. Khaki Green J.*

The colour combination selected should approximate to the colours of the country in which it is expected the vehicle will operate.

-For Australian Coastal areas use Sets No. 2, 3, 4, or 6
-For Australian Central and Northern Areas use Set No.5 or 7
-Set No.1 will merge under almost any circumstances.

[Mrs Vampire]

I take your point Tony ...and yet the vehicles of the 1st and 3rd armoured division were painted disruptive in the field.

Could this mean armor at least was issued in basic green and disruptive applied , as you say, to suit the locality ?

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Tony,

Cannot agree with your assumptions re availability of LS & KG3, and I think the correspondence of the period supports that view.

Instructions are one thing: putting them into practice is a whole other cricket match.

Mike

[Tony Wheeler]

Very true Mike, I'd need to see the correspondence before staking my life on KG/LS availability at unit level. However if it was available in production, which appears to have been the case, then it "should" be available everywhere soon thereafter, notwithstanding Army red tape. Certainly I don't see how any commercial substitute could be had in sufficient quantity any sooner, particularly in remote areas. For example Darwin was already being evacuated of civilians when this instruction was issued, and fully evacuated after Feb '42 bombing.

Anecdotal evidence also indicates LS availability in the field, will dig up some pics shortly.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

I take your point Tony ...and yet the vehicles of the 1st and 3rd armoured division were painted disruptive in the field.

Light Stone was discontinued in July '42 and should not appear on your tank Gina. Disruptive colour after that was Light Earth, but only until November '42 when Vehicle Dark Green / Vehicle Light Grey was introduced. This scheme is seen in the field as early as December '42 including vehicles on exercise in coastal NSW. In other words it "should" have been available when your tank received disruptive paintwork. However as Mike says, it's one thing to issue instructions, quite another thing to implement them.

[Mrs Vampire]

It looks just like the Light Stone on your door Tony . Same Same with Pictures of the Grants from the 2/4th Dec 1942 on their way to Murgon. .

The photos I posted here are what is on it .

[Dianaa]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

... I've had a gutful of chasing WWII paint specs and it's ridiculous that we have to reinvent the wheel every time we want to paint a vehicle. These are standard factory colours, just like any modern car colour, and there's no earthly reason why we can't simply ring up and order them. Imagine if panel beaters had to go through this paint matching rigmarole for every minor repair.

Attachment 67229

This is a problem for panel beaters for eon, but just because it is a factory colour doesn't mean that the new batch will match. Cars left in bright sunshine fade more quickly than cars keps in shade. It is why most good panel beaters will start to formula and will then adjust by eye.

However if you're painting a whole vehicle then the formula should be correct.

Can we start a locked sticky section where we can send current formula/brand (even if its a new match) to a moderator who'll post the specific formula. That way we could go direct to the post/thread and not have to wade through pages of discussion?

[Mrs Vampire]

Joining the dots from the bits and pieces I have found on the vehicle this is my current mud map .
The sand guards are purely speculative as they were not on the Tank when it was auctioned off after the war.