R.I.P. Farley Mowat

[Marc Montgomery]

Nope, not many would know that... as for the V2 at the CNE...I suspect, but do not know, that it was either a mock-up, or "on loan" . If on loan, by that time I guess the technology was no longer so secret and maybe the Americans werent so concerned about it , and besides it was probably just an empty shell methinks

now lets talk about the Bomarc missiles and whether we ever were- actually- given nuclear warheads- or sandbags and the whole controversy over the Arrow... a WW2 era technology that still surpasses the performance of the F-35

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

the Arrow... a WW2 era technology that still surpasses the performance of the F-35

I think the need for some level of patriotism is what causes Canadians make outlandish claims like this. The Arrow was far from being proven, was HUGE, and would not have had the benefits of the computers available to today's craft.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally Posted by rob love

I think the need for some level of patriotism is what causes Canadians make outlandish claims like this. The Arrow was far from being proven, was HUGE, and would not have had the benefits of the computers available to today's craft.

To allay any Canadian jingoistic patriotism, here's a direct quote from Jan Zurakowski, during an interview:

"It was a very good plane but nothing special as several other countries were working on almost the same type of plane".

[maple_leaf_eh]

If it any indication of my opinion of Mowat as a human and public figure, I just lined the cat litter box with the front page of the paper.

I like some of his non preachy stories, and I know he has been a major Canadian figure in literature. Which sort of balances for his wartime service and collecting successes. The little Panzer I that was at the War Museum is one he apparently collected, and the administrators used in trade with Littlefield for something more relevant.

[Marc Montgomery]

not so outlandish, not jingoistic..
it was faster even without the more powerful (Canadian) engine, and could fly higher, although combat range might be less (although different sources give different ranges including some that indicate greater range than F-35)
.However, given the almost 60 year difference, Im sure that a theoretical Arrow Mk-X would have improved range, and the fact that the F-35 for all its modernity..is several years behind schedule and still working out problems.

**as far as not having the benefits of computers available on todays aircraft...what planes in the late 50s had computer control? The Arrow was ahead of its time with near- fly by wire- technology...and given the 60 year gap, it seems fairly evident that later versions would naturally have been fitted with computers..

"the aircraft went supersonic on its third flight and,[49] on the seventh, broke 1,000 mph (1,600 km/h) at 50,000 ft (15,000 m), while climbing and accelerating. A top speed of Mach 1.98 was achieved, however this was not at the limits of its performance. * over 2,100 km/h (some sources say over 2,400 km/h) with much higher potential, vs F35 1,950 km/h

JAN Z speaking= "I will just speak for two minutes and twelve seconds. Time goes too fast for me! I am surprised that already we are celebrating the 40th anniversary of the first flight of the Avro Arrow. I must commend the Aerospace Heritage foundation of Canada, as well as the other organizations that keep the memory of the Avro Arrow as part of Canadian history. Those were the times when Canada stood at the forefront of a niche technology and I am proud that I was part of it.
The first flight of the Arrow was not my success. I carried before and after many more difficult and dangerous flights . It was successful in a more difficult step created by the thousands of, enthusiastic and hardworking men and women.
They were proud of this aircraft and that's why, later the silent cancellation of he Arrow was such a shock to many.
It was my privilege to work with many outstanding people: Jim Floyd, the Chief Designer of the Arrow, Mario Pesando. Excellent boss of the experimental section, Don Rogers, Manager of Test flight And of course my fellow test pilots: Peter Cope, Jack Woodman, Spud Potoki

Spud Potoki was the only test pilot to test all five arrows and he reached the highest speed at 1.98 mach number. I would like to like to point out that already on the seventh flight of the arrow at the altitude of 50,000 feet, I exceeded one thousand miles per hour. After 40 years, this performance is similar to the performance of the CF-18 of the Royal Canadian Air force. By the destructive cancellation, Avro missed its potential, but it still lives in the memory and hearts of Canadians. The success of creating this aircraft remains, and this is the way I would remember it today. Thank you "

Peter Cope Arrow test pilot=-
In a CBC documentary on the Arrow, Peter commented that “it was a phenomenal performing aircraft; our performance boys thought we might get Mach 1.6 out of it yet we flew it to nearly Mach 2. With the Iroquois engine we were talking about a 2.3 or 2.4 Mach number potential. There wasn’t a single plane flying at the time that could come anywhere near to touching that aeroplane. Boy, the day I saw them take the torches to those planes was the nearest I’ve come to shedding a tear over an aeroplane.

"Apart from a landing gear warning light, the flight was without problem. Zurakowski declared that the Arrow was easier to fly than the F-102 or the Gloster Javelin, two other delta-winged fighters. This would later be confirmed by other test pilots, who praised the handling of the CF-105 highly. "

"Jan continued flying on the Arrow until he was 44. Spud then took over most test flights. Jan stated the Arrow handled beautifully."

[rob love]

Well Marc, since the craft were destroyed, and the plans shredded, I guess we will never know if somehow Canada was about to produce a first rate plane. I guess we will have to rely on the patriotic hopes and fantasies.

[Marc Montgomery]

fantasies Rob? with the less powerful test engine it had a higher cieling, and went faster. These are facts and not patriotic fantasies

agreed the "potential" will never be known, but the fact remains that Canadian engineers built a space age jet, using and advancing on ww2 technology.

It is also true that when the plant was closed, many engineers went to work in the US aerospace industry and NASA creating subsequent generations of advanced fighters and for the space programme

I fail to understand your antipathy. Why denigrate an amazing Canadian accomplishment?

Had it proceeded, would the original be competitive today, almost surely not, and would various subsequent Mk's be around today...also highly unlikely. It was designed for a fairly specific role, but could however have been the basis for an entire new Canadian aerospace industry. The CF-86 Canadian Orenda powered jets with other Cdn mods were faster better planes than the -GE powered F-86 for example (or so the books and pilots seem to indicate)

[rob love]

Well Marc, I suppose as long as we only wanted to wage war with the Northern USA, and didn't mind the 10 mile turn radius, then the Arrow it was.

At the time of the development, there were plenty of stories already about the problems with this craft. With no real hours put on them, then any hype as to it's long term superiority is just that: Hype.

[Marc Montgomery]

2G turn at 50,000 ft at Mach 1.5 maintain speed and altitude... pretty darn good if you ask me..
Ive read several books on the Arrow, and lots of "papers" and opinions.. dont recall much complaining (um none?) on handling or performance.
Admittedly 70 hours of trials is not a lot, I guess, but otherwise you have to be amazed at what it actually did, and what its potential was, so at this point I think we've dragged this out enough.. so I leave you with your opinion, and me with the right one. ;-)