Centurion photos

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Dan,

Don't know much about the Canadian use of Centurion: suggest Don Dingwall's 'The Centurion in Canadian Service' from Service Publications is a fine start.

The Depression Stop Rail was a hard rubber, raised edge around the outer edge of the rear deck to prevent the main armament from fouling the steel deck during traverse. It had to be modified to prevent the B type barrel fume extractor from preventing depression during traverse, and when placing the barrel into the gun crutch.

Mods to Centurions, as issued from the British War Office, fill volumes. Simon Dunstan is documenting them all, in a mammoth piece of work that he intends to publish eventually.

Mike C

[Mike Cecil]

Dan,

Sorry, forgot to say: the Type C barrel had a short counterweight at the muzzle, combined with either a mid-barrel counterweight or fume extractor. It was bored in the barrel for the gas ports, but not necessarily fitted with the fume extractor. If fitted with the mid-barrel counterweight, the gas ports were fitted with threaded plugs. The Type C was sort of a Type A and B all rolled into one.

Type A counterweight (muzzle), to be balanced, had an additional length added to the counterweight tube.

Mike C

[Dan Martel]

Mile,

Just by happenstance I was surfing through the site 'ruhrmemories.ca' this week. It's been completely revamped and has had some new photographs added. Two of the new photographs show the rear deck of the Centurion tank with 105mm Type B barrels. In both the turrets are reversed and the barrels are clamped to deck.

After seeing these I think I know what you mean by the Depression Stop Rail and how (and why) the clamp, or crutch, had to be moved. The DSR are the rubber pads that outline the top edge of the engine deck, while the clamp was moved to the left rear side to accommodate the fume extractor.

Am I on the right track? (No pun intended.)

Cheers,
Dan.

[Mike Cecil]

Dan,

Interesting images. The B&W image shows three Centurions: the two in the background have 105mm Main armament (fume extractor is not concentric, and is square edged), while the closest is a 20-pdr with the rounded, concentric fume extractor and a single counterweight for balance.

Cents from at least Mk.3 onwards had the gun crutch on the rear left corner of the hull. The mod was required because the diameter of the B type barrel was slightly larger at that point than the A type barrel. The crutch had to be enlarged just a fraction (but not moved).

The colour image shows a Cent with 20pdr main armament moving onto or off (most probably off: no ground guide on the trailer deck directing the driver) a Dyson Mk.3, 50 ton trailer being towed by a Diamond-T tractor.

Mike C

[Dan Martel]

Mike,

I will gladly defer to your obvious familiarity with the Centurion, but if I may I would like to play the Devil's Advocate for just a minute. Further to the first photo, I had to crop it down to fit into the window. The actual photo is 1600px and shows an entire squadron of tanks aboard the train. None of the other barrels are visible, but the camouflage pattern of the vehicles suggests that the photo was taken after the July, 1965, changeover to 105mm L7 guns. For that reason I can't understand why there would be any 20-pdr armed tanks still being used.

The second photo is dated 1970, but I'll admit that the lack of a camouflage paint job on the tank makes the probable photograph date much earlier.

Again, thanks for the new information in your reply. If you don't mind, I still have some more bone questions to ask about the Centurion.

Where Type B barrels created from Type A's as a refit at a workshop or depot, or were Type A's and Type B's produced as such at the factory?

I had always thought, obviously in error, that the exterior of the 20-pdr and 105mm barrel was the same (Type A or B), and that it was only the interior sleeve that needed to be changed to increase the bore by 21mm. Wrong again?

I have a couple of other questions that I have never been able to find an answer to, that I would be embarrassed to ask on an open forum. May I contact you via email for an answer?

Cheers,
Dan

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Dan,

Yes, please PM me if you wish.

To answer your questions and queries, the closest tank is armed with a 20-pdr: no 'ifs' or 'buts'. Besides the fume extractor being a 20pdr type (and with the counterweight welded along the top), the mantlet is not fitted with a .50 cal Ranging Machine Gun as were most Mks of Cent fitted with the L7 (the exception is the Brit Mk.6).

As to the change over date, like most changeovers, it took time. In the case of the Canadian Army, Dingwall states that not all were changed to the 107mm L7 tank gun anyway. Is this/are these Canadian images? Both Mk.5 (and Mk5/1) with 20pdr and Mk.11 with 105mm were in service at the same time until the Centurion fleet was finally withdrawn from service in the 1970s. So it would be possible to have both on a train somewhere, I suppose.

The Type A was not converted to Type B. Type A production stopped when Type B production started. I believe Type C was the conversion of Type A to using a fume extractor, but as Type C were never used in Australia, I have not investigated this aspect in detail .

The 105mm L7 does not have a type letter: it came in only one configuration with the eccentric fume extractor. These were all new production barrels. They do fit the 20-pdr breech block. Except for the breech fit portion, I believe the L7 is a slightly larger external diameter at any given point than the 20pdr Type B barrel, and are also larger than the same given point on a Type A barrel (based on a comparison of 105mm L7 fitted to Leopard AS1 and type B barrels fitted to Centurion Mk.5/1).

Regards

Mike C

[Dan Martel]

Mike,

Again, your knowledge overwhelms me. I've been doing some further research into the Canadian use of the Centurion in Germany, particularly concerning the dates of when changes were made. The only conclusion at which I've been able to arrive is that there is no documented evidence giving these details. Most information is based on best-guesses made from available photographic evidence. And yes, 20-pdrs and L7's could be found being used at the same time.

I've also been able to identify where and when the earlier photograph of the the two Mk 5/2's and the Mk 5 was taken. Another version of the photo can be found in the history of the RCAC which states that the tanks belonged to the Fort Garry Horse, the year was 1965, and the location was the rail marshaling yards at Iserlohn. (I should credit the photo to Lt-Col David Summers at this point.)

Now, can it be determined if any of the Centurions in the earlier photos have been equipped with an auxiliary 100-gal fuel tank? I understand that being fitted with one allowed the vehicle to have the appellation LR for 'long range.' I think the tanks in the marshaling yards may be so equipped, but not the one unloading from the transporter. Again, right or wrong?

As always, awaiting your wisdom.

Cheers,
Dan.