Identification Quizz

[nox83]

What's that?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1093798478
picture come from Panzer units in the operations OZAK 1943-45 by Stefano Di Giusto
I need expert. Thanks in advance

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi there

It's got a British-style split rim wheel and tire at the front, like from a Bedford OY .

But it's no British armoured vehicle that I recognize.

Theatre-built?

Steve

[Bill Murray]

Personally, I think Steve's first clue is the one to start on.
Let the chase begin.
Bill

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi

What do you think about the wheel?



From 'World War Two Military Vehicles: Transport and Halftracks" by G.N.Georgano, published by Osprey Automotive, Bournmouth U.K. 1994

[nox83]

What do you think about that?
a Rover Light armoured Car
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...eid=1093770798

[nox83]

if that can help you

[Richard Farrant]

Judging by the wheelbase it could be built on a Bedford MW 15cwt chassis, but not forgeting these wheels were used on other makes, could be a Morris Commercial CS8. The germans used a lot of them rebodied.

Richard

[nox83]

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by nox83
What do you think about that?
a Rover Light armoured Car
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...eid=1093770798

You mean one of these critters?



Close, but I don't think so. The angle of the lower armour looks too sharp on the Rover, and it looks to be longer than the Rover too.

In fact, I don't believe these went outside Australia, but I could stand corrected.

http://www.oldcmp.net/rover_1.html

[nuyt]

Ok, seriously:
1. are we sure these pictures are really from WW2 and not made during the shooting of a WW2 film much later, featuring a mock up vehicle on Bedford chassis?
2. If these are original pictures then what do we know about
a - the theatre, b - the OZAK operations, c- the camo pattern, d- the troops (cossacks?)?

Greetings,
Nuyt

[nox83]

The Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland (OZAK, Operation Zone Adriatic Littoral) was created by the Germans after the Italian armistice of 8th September 1943. It was a large area that included the north-eastern border regions of Italy and parts of present Slovenia and Croatia.
Although it was a secondary war theatre, separated from the main battlefronts until the last phases of the conflict, the strategic importance of the region and the presence of a strong resistance movement forced the Germans to maintain a considerable military presence in the area, with a fairly large amount of tank units or units supported by armoured vehicles.

It's not a mock up vehicle on Bedford chassis for Z serie WW2 film, sorry

The Cossack National Movement of Liberation, which had the aim of rebuilding an independent Cossack state, fostered the recruiting of Cossacks for the fight against the Soviets. The summer of 1943 saw the formation of the 1st Cossack Division, under the command of the German general Helmut von Pannwitz. The division soon expanded into the 15th SS Cossack Cavalry Corps, which numbered some 50,000 men. Afterwards, two Cossack brigades and 12 Cossack reserve regiments formed, and a number of smaller units became attached to German formations. In all, Cossack troops on the German side numbered about 250,000 men.

Note that the granting of the "SS" status to the Cossack Corps came about through Himmler's policy, quite often applied, of barring the Wehrmacht's influence in the political concerns of non-German formations. The Germans used the Cossacks to fight Soviet partisans, to cover the rear of their armies, and sometimes for action on the front. Later on, some Cossack formations moved to France and to Yugoslavia

Sorry if the camouflage is so psychedelic

[Keith Webb]

I don't have the issue with me, but I seem to recall seeing something similar once in the mystery page of a Wheels and Tracks issue once.

[nox83]

by any article which could solve this enigma.
thanks a lot Keith

[nuyt]

tks Noel for the quick and extensive reply! Sorry if I cross-examined your quizz to much...

Ok, considering the cossacks would not have brought the truck with them to the OZAK region and if we assume this was Yugoslav territory, well, than I admit I am lost ...

The Bedford or whatever vehicle could have been captured in France or Greece or even Yugoslavia itself?

It could also have been a captured partisan vehicle. Icks and Crow describe such vehicles in their encyclopedia of armoured cars.

The hull looks AXIS though, comparable with German halftracks and Italian Spa Dovunque APC prototype.
But, still a 4x2 apc similar in concept to the
Overvalwagens!

Kind regards, Nuyt

[Bill Murray]

Nox83:

You may be using the same reference I am posting here, but in any case, Editions Heimdal published an excellent history of the Cossacks in 2000, details as follows.

Les Cosaques de Pannwitz 1942-1945
Author: Francois de Lannoy
ISBN 2 84048 131 6

Email: Editions.heimdal@wanadoo.fr

Language is French/English, hundreds of excellent photos and well written text taking the story from the beginning to a very sad end.
While our mystery vehicle is not shown in the book, many, many other very interesting vehicles, tanks, weapons etc. are pictured and the quality is outstanding.

As to the mystery vehicle, I am still searching my photos but cannot come up with anything other than the chassis is certainly British but, what chassis?
Bill

[Richard Farrant]

Looking at the second picture, the one showing the rear wheel under the horse, I feel certain that it is a Bedford rear axle shaft showing, and not a Morris Commercial.

Richard

Originally posted by nox83
What's that?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1093798478
picture come from Panzer units in the operations OZAK 1943-45 by Stefano Di Giusto
I need expert. Thanks in advance

Well. . . . . . .It could be a German conversion to a French Laffly W 15T, they applied armoured bodywork to some of them similar in look to their 3 ton Armourd Personnel Carriers bodies (the Sdkfz 251 3 ton SPW's).

The gun mount is a standard German item seen fitted on many bunkers, rail wagons, vehicles and trailers, its called Zwillingssockel 34, and can either have two MG 34 machine guns (as shown here) or two MG42.

R.

Originally posted by FV623
Well. . . . . . .It could be a German conversion to a French Laffly W 15T, they applied armoured bodywork to some of them similar in look to their 3 ton Armourd Personnel Carriers bodies (the Sdkfz 251 3 ton SPW's).

Well, further to that look at the body shape and the rectangular shapes, probably chain hooks, in the wheel rims and the wheel hub itself. Of course the nose would give it away as these all had the very characteristic small unditching wheels at the front. These W 15Ts would have likely been captured in quantity of course.

Here's what I've found in Beute-Kraftfahrzeuge und-Panzer der deutschen Wehrmacht by Walter Spielberger.

R

[nox83]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1095617791
say me that you think about it

Originally posted by nox83
http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1095617791
say me that you think about it

Interesting stuff, my tame German expert also notes that unit histories often record the one-off modification of all manner of vehicles, especially whilst the Wehrmacht was garrisonned in France with little else to do.

What it definitely is/was may well be a mystery for some time yet.

R.