Snail's pace Blitz rebuild

[Ryan]

Wow, things have slowed to a crawl on the Blitz. But I'm still at it. Still working on the chassis, and playing with the cab. And still coming up against things that just stop me because I just don't have a big enough spanner or socket.
At the very start of this thread I mentioned of the "rewarding process of restoration", well I'm still in the bloody frustrating part of it. You live and learn.

[Keith Webb]

Let me guess... steering wheel and pitman arm nuts? Or is it the hub nuts?
There's not a lot on a Ford CMP over 1". Usually you can tell because someone before you has used a cold chisel and hammer.

Originally Posted by Ryan

Wow, things have slowed to a crawl on the Blitz. But I'm still at it. Still working on the chassis, and playing with the cab. And still coming up against things that just stop me because I just don't have a big enough spanner or socket.
At the very start of this thread I mentioned of the "rewarding process of restoration", well I'm still in the bloody frustrating part of it. You live and learn.

[Ryan]

Hub nuts keith, your on the money. I've got a bloody big shifter but it misses by a mil or two on the front hub. I guess the good thing is that super cheap and repco have sales on at the moment so I'll have to go in and have a look.
Rear axle: ring spanner or socket?

On a different note can the brains trust ID this 4cyl diesel sitting in a Blitz?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Hub nuts keith, your on the money. I've got a bloody big shifter but it misses by a mil or two on the front hub. I guess the good thing is that super cheap and repco have sales on at the moment so I'll have to go in and have a look.
Rear axle: ring spanner or socket?

On a different note can the brains trust ID this 4cyl diesel sitting in a Blitz?

Hi Ryan,
A British Ford 4D engine, could be from a Thames Trader, similar fitted to the Fordson Major. A common conversion in the UK when CMP's were run commercially.

[Keith Webb]

Try this instead for the rear hub nuts... it's the correct tool.

[Keith Webb]

Howard had a box full in the SFOS sale, wonder who bought them.

I have handles to suit if you need.

[Ryan]

You and me need to talk. I'll bring my wallet.
socket, handle, ID tags, YOT DVDs....hmm what else?

Does that socket fit the front and rear hubs? ( is that someone yelling their the same size ya drongo? )

Richard, cheers for the engine ID, what and where should I look for on the engine in regards to serial numbers or such that denotes a 4D?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Richard, cheers for the engine ID, what and where should I look for on the engine in regards to serial numbers or such that denotes a 4D?

Not sure on that Ryan, I am not much of a Ford man, last time I worked on Major engines was about 40 years ago. As it is painted yellow, I am wondering if it has come out of a digger or some other plant. The 4D was a popular power plant for all sorts of machinery.

[Ryan]

No worries Richard, I'll begin trolling the net, well, until I've put my 3 yr old to bed....oh, that's now. Then later it is!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Ryan

No worries Richard, I'll begin trolling the net, well, until I've put my 3 yr old to bed....oh, that's now. Then later it is!

Ryan,
Just copied this off another forum, http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/di...&threadid=2173 it should give you some background info;

Ford (of Britain) launched the "E1A Fordson Major" tractor in 1952 with a new overhead valve 4 cylinder 220 cubic inch diesel. This engine was known as the "4D". Shortly afterwards the "4D" was made available for fitting into the "Thames ET6/7" range of lorries (up to 5 tons payload). There was also a petrol version of this engine of approx 200 cubic inches. The competition however offered 7 tons payload, so Ford needed a new model of lorry to compete. This was known as the "Thames Trader" and was launched in May 1957 with the option of a "4D" or a new "6D" engine depending on the payload. The 6D was simply a 6 cylinder version of the 4D and therefore had a capacity of 330 cubic inches. There was also a petrol version of this engine of approximately 300 cubic inches.

There were effectively 3 flavours of the 4D engine: Agricultural / Automotive / Industrial. The agricultural version didn't rev as quickly as the automotive version - approx 1800rpm instead of approx 2400rpm. The industrial version had slight differences like a decompressor for starting with a handle.

Unlike the 4D, the 6D only had 2 flavours: Automotive / Industrial. A limited number of 6D engines were used in Agriculture by companies like County and Roadless for 6 cylinder 4 wheel drive Fordson Majors. A number were also used in combines / grass drying plant etc, but these were basically Industrial engines being used for agriculture. Ford themselves never really developed an agricultural version of this engine, and never built a 6 cylinder Fordson Major, although many were later converted.

The Fordson Major was produced until 1964, whilst the Thames Trader and Industrial engines were produced until 1965. During the production run of these engines (1952 to 1965), numerous minor changes were made, although the engines retained their basic design and dimensions throughout, with many of the parts being interchangable across the years. Some of the more significant changes include:
-- The launch of the Mk2 engine in 1957, which amongst other changes had "high crown" pistons, and a thicker head gasket.
-- The sealing of the (wet) cylinder liners with two O-rings in 1961. One at the top, one at the bottom. Previously only one O-ring had been used at the bottom.
-- The use of a Simms Minimec mechanically governed fuel pump instead of the previous vacuum governed Simms pump in 1962.

With the launch of the Mk2 Thames Trader in 1962, the 6D engine was fitted with the "FL" cylinder head. The 4D had the "FL" head from 1963. Please see the following link for further details of the "FL" head (courtesy of Steven B). http://www.ytmag.com/fordson/messages/2506.html

In April 1965 Ford launched the "D-series" lorry to replace the Thames Trader. Contrary to popular opinion, these lorries didn't have a "beefed-up" 6D, they had a whole new range of engines. These new engines had dry cylinder liners and a new block / cylinder head / sump etc. The first of these engines were offered in 330 & 360 cubic inch configuration, and a Turbo 360 was offered in 1968. The automotive versions of these engines were fitted in the lorries on a slant. The Ford Cargo replaced the D-series. The majority of marinized Ford 6 cylinders diesels that you will see nowadays are based on D-series / Cargo engines. The old "Thames Trader" engine (which you have) are scarcer to find now. The easiest way to identify the "4D / 6D" engines from the later engines is the external drive shaft to the injection pump.

On the 4D engine, either a nylon or a rubber coupling will be found as an injection pump drive shaft coupling. The injection pump drive exits the block from the timing gears, through the aforementioned coupling to the injection pump. On the 6D engine a drive shaft of approx 6 inches length is used to connect the pump to the timing gears. On both the 4D & 6D engines, the drive will be seen rotating whilst the engine is running.

The later D-series / Cargo engines however have the pump mounted directly to the timing gears and no moving parts will be seen whilst the engine is running.

Ford themselves never produced a marine version of their engines, however many industrial engines were marinized by third party companies. Going by the part numbers you have given, you have a marinized Ford 6D.

Judging from the cylinder head part number you have given (510E 6050-E FL), your engine dates from between 1962 (introduction of FL cylinder head) and 1965 (end of production).

I hope this helps you to understand what engine you have.

With regards parts availability, these engines are fairly easy to get bits for. A significant number of Fordson Major tractors are still in use around the world, and a large number have also been preserved / restored. Consequently, a lot of parts are being remanufactured for the Fordson Major, which don't forget is just a 4 cylinder version of your engine.

It should be easy to get hold of Valves, Valve guides, Pistons, Liners, Small end bearings, big end shells, main bearing shells, crank seals, water pumps etc. since they are all used on the "4D". Parts specifically for the 6D might not be quite so easy to get hold of, although they shouldn't pose too many problems.

The industrial engines were designated 589E, 590E, 591E, 592E for the 6 cylinder petrol, 6 cylinder diesel, 4 cylinder petrol, 4 cylinder diesel respectively. The Thames Trader 5 ton diesel (RHD) was denoted 510E, and the Thames Trader 5 ton petrol (RHD) was denoted 508E. The Fordson Major was designated the E1A.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Does that socket fit the front and rear hubs? ( is that someone yelling their the same size ya drongo? )

No they're different sizes Ryan. The rear hub nut is octagonal and you can't get a shifter onto it so you definitely need the special tool (as per Keith's pic).

The front hub nut is 2" hexagonal so you either need a big shifter or a 2" socket. Probably cheaper to buy a socket (eg. Kingchrome $25 at Bursons) and you'll get some use out of it on the sump plug which is also 2".

[Jacques Reed]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

No they're different sizes Ryan. The rear hub nut is octagonal and you can't get a shifter onto it so you definitely need the special tool (as per Keith's pic).

(eg. Kingchrome $25 at Bursons) and you'll get some use out of it on the sump plug which is also 2".

Thought I'd post a photo of an original Ford rear axle hub socket Part No. CO1Q-17033. As you said Tony any 2" socket will do the job. Still, nice to collect the originals if they turn up at sensible prices. I luckily picked this up years ago at Bruce Cowleys in Geelong for $5.

Cheers,

[Private_collector]

I think the hex socket of yours is the front size, isn't it?

Rear should be octagonal, and moderately larger. No idea of exact size, because I never need to source a socket. I have the original Ford part.

[Jacques Reed]

Duh! Sorry, correction. Front hub socket shown. Rear one is the big one!

Cheers

[Jacques Reed]

While on the subject of special axle nut sockets I thought it might be worth mentioning a socket that comes in handy on the wheel nuts that hold the split rims together. Was going to post it in the special tools section but is relevant here also.

I have found a 3/4" drive 28mm deep impact socket and a breaker bar will remove any of those nuts I have ever come across. if you have a 3/4" drive "windy hammer" all the better. You need a deep socket of course for the longer studs used to start the wheel halves drawing together.

The nuts are nominally 1-1/8" AF but a 28mm socket is just a few thou smaller. 1.102" as against 1.125" nominal size.
There is still plenty of clearance in the socket for paint and rust buildup to get the socket on.
It probably is easier on flanks of the nut too with the shorter distance across the flats. My original wheel spanner is very sloppy on those nuts so I never use it.

Cheers

[Ryan]

Thank you to all three of you gentlemen for helping me out here. I shall soon be getting back to the blitz once I get through a rather large pile of wood that needs cutting and storing.

[Ryan]

A bit off topic here, but I've been flat out at work for several months now, and this is why. My mug is even on the video.

The Falcon GT is back at Ford again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUFqR...ature=youtu.be

[Ganmain Tony]

Fantastic Ryan...I can say Im in the very fortunate category of having driven a XB Four Door GT...

Dad had an XA Four Door GT and my uncle had an '73 Four Door XB GT which had the higher horse power Cleveland..We grew up with these cars as kids and went everywhere in them... they were magnificent Grand Tourer (Tourisimo) in every sense of the word. I will never forget going down Conrod Straight with Dad in the XA at full noise..

Well done to you. You are in elite company to be building the engines in the new ones. Must be a buzz to turn up to work everyday

[hrpearce]

Now at least I know what you look like. The new GT looks a lot better than my old XC wagon and Greg's XF ute.

[Ryan]

Cheers guys.
Tony, it's been terrific, there is a real excitment among us at the moment. We really want to sink our teeth into this new monster we've been given.
Rob, no worries mate, we'll bump into each other one day!

[Ryan]

Was in the shed today in all the heat.
Working on the front brakes.
Replaced a brake shoe with a NOS one I had. The pic of the three brakes shoes shows the one I replaced, a NOS canadian one and a NOS USA one of a slightly different pad length. I used the canuck one.
The pic of the brake cylinder shows the shoe 'teeth', they spin, one is tighter than the other. I tried pumping air in to see them expand but to no avail, to much leakage. How do you get them out?
There was a fair bit of crap in the drivers side brake drum but nothing too bad. All cleaned up well.

[Keith Webb]

Usually I use a vise with a socket to fit and push them in first... once they're moving they usually come out fairly easily.

[Ganmain Tony]

Try pushing them in as far as you can Ryan, clean the crap out of the cylinder in front of the piston then they should come out easily. Soaking them in metho helps enormously..

Looks good mate, you're into it now

[Ryan]

Cheers Tony, yep, a day of progress does feel good.

A quick question all, what brake fluid should I be buying for my Ford F15. I'm at work and away from my books. I've got a repco near me so I'll pop in afterwork. How much too?

[Ganmain Tony]

I used a dot 5 fluid for mine Ryan.

Just simply what we used at work to put in everything...Pulsars, Patrols and any other car or truck on 4 wheels.

I'd reckon anything from dot 3 would be fine.

[Ryan]

At home and my F15 handbook says use brake fluid no.3. Is that the same as a modern dot 3 brake fluid? Also, how much would be needed to effectively bleed the system and fill it?

[Ganmain Tony]

Originally Posted by Ryan

At home and my F15 handbook says use brake fluid no.3. Is that the same as a modern dot 3 brake fluid? Also, how much would be needed to effectively bleed the system and fill it?

Not sure about the manuals equivalent Ryan but the stuff I put in mine works fine. I'm pretty sure Max and the other Yass guys have used just standard "Off the shelf" brake fluid for years and never had a problem. Just ask Repco for anything from Dot 3, 4 or 5.

It is important to keep using the same Dot fluid you originally select.

A litre should be plenty but Id get a second bottle just in case.

[Ryan]

Cheers Tony, will do.
Cylinder is soaking overnight.

[Howard]

Sorry, using memory as my only reference meant I got it arse about.
As far as I am aware, the following info is correct.:
Dot 4 has a higher boiling point than 3.
Dot 4 has more favourable hygroscopic properties than 3
But, Dot 4 can cause problems with some rubber components, and has been reported by Toyota (and Honda too, from memory) due to it missing a specific polymer or lubricant additive.
Therefore I used dot 3 when I fitted my brakes to the F15.
Dot 5 is synthetic silicone based and is OK for new/overhauled brake systems that do not have any trace of 3 or 4 remaining in the system.
Oh, yeah, there's a problem with dot5 in ABS systems from memory, just in case you were going to trick up the Blitz brakes!

[Ryan]

Hi Howard,
Went past repco after work and bought 1.5 litres of dot3 brake fluid.
And currently have that tight brake cylinder soaking to free up. Plan is to use compressed air to open it up after its bath.

In other news I replaced a water pump ( hooked up to one of our farm's water tanks ) tonight after it decided enough was enough and it turned itself into a sprinkler.