Caunter Carrier Scheme Original pics.

[kevin powles]

Hi, Painting one of the carriers in Caunter and want to get it right, I have swatches of the original colours and am looking for the correct places for the straight lines. What I want to do is pull together all known original photos together in this thread.

any pics you have please post.

thanks kevin.

[kevin powles]

Hi, Particulary interested in front and rear views.

kevin.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi Kevin,

Did you search this forum already? Look for Mike Starmer's books, he researched coulors and schemes from original sources, all you need is there.

Regards,
Hanno

[kevin powles]

Hi, Yes I do hve this book, but I am still a little cofused about areas around the front fenders and rear of the carrier, you will understand if you read the book and have a carrier.

kevin.

[Lynn Eades]

My knowledge in this area, is pretty much zip, but I doubt that any Canadian MkI* universals, were ever painted in caunter camoflage. I think you would find them all to be British built carriers in that pattern.(I am ignoring the Australian LP1)
Maybe someone (Mike S.? ) might like to tune in and wise me up.

[RichardT10829]

Starmer is the chap to speak with... Kevin email him his knowlege on the subject is vast.... i spent ages discussing schemes with him for my carrier.... what i will say though is if you have used the current pattern light stone. it is the wrong shade (so i am told...and going from starmers swatches would tend to agree)

also caunter itself is a nightmare as from different dates the colours changed, some were a number of shades of light green and beige over light stone.... others were blue light stone and slate/grey....

[Ben]

I'd agree, talk to Mike. He's helping with the colours the scout was painted.

I found it to be KG3 from the factory with sand and stone colours on top of that. Mike is trying to establish if it was the early British desert scheme or caunter over the KG3. Both correct for 1940.

Which one are you doing in caunter?

Ben

[RichardT10829]

something pre 42 ;-)

[kevin powles]

Hi, Thanks guys, Anyone got Mike's contact details, I have started painting the buried carrier in light stone, mixed to match from the swatch.

kev.

[RichardT10829]

I found a RAL paint which was very very close can't remember it's number but 1002 seems to jump to mind.... I will try and get my phone to work (on school run at mo) and will text you the email mate



EDIT: got his amil out of my phone

[deleted by moderator - due to the risk of spamming, please don't post email addresses - especially not those of other people]

his firm is matador models if memory serves me well

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by kevin powles

Hi, Thanks guys, Anyone got Mike's contact details, I have started painting the buried carrier in light stone, mixed to match from the swatch.

Kevin,

Mike is a member of this forum, look up his profile and use the "send message" funtionality.

Also, if you search for his name on this forum you'll find this thread which contains an e-mail link.

HTH,
Hanno

[RichardT10829]

The email i posted was from his website... but you will get the details from his profile i guess.

[kevin powles]

Thanks, I will contact him. Still be good to have a thread on Caunter pattern carriers, so if anyone has any they can post that would be great!.

It's also worth noting from the pics i have posted that the guys back then were not to bothered which way round they put the tracks on.

Would these all be British built carriers in Caunter?. No Canadian??.

kev.

[Ben]

I've not checked "T" numbers so I can't be sure but they seem to have the pawl spring type front idlers which would make them very early universals. I believe this to be more common on early British carriers than the Canadian ones.

Kevin I know one of you hulls has this type of idler, and it's Canadian. Easiest way would be to check the dates I guess? when did caunter stop being used? if your carrier is after that date then it wouldn't be that colour!

If you just want to paint it caunter to represent that type, who cares? it's your carrier paint it as you like........(SAS pink anyone?)

Ben

[kevin powles]

Ben, I think they discontinued it in 1942 but I probably will be corrected, The ex buried carrier is 1941, I will put the 1940 pawl spring carrier in the sand colour in Mike's book, forget the correct name for the colour, You got any caunter pics?., I am hoping to go to Malvern, possibly drop in with your wheel and take a look at the Scout carrier?.

kevin.

[Ben]

I'll have a trawl and see what pics I've got. Not sure i'll have anything new!

When's Malvern? the one in March? feel free to pop in and take a look.

Ben

[kevin powles]

Ben, Sunday 18th of November 2012.

[RichardT10829]

Kevin's right, its my understanding that after Alamein 42 they standardised cammo schemes, and all regiments / divisions had to conform with the standard, I have seen caunter on south african units carriers, and indian units...... I dont know at what point Canada kicked her production into high gear but I am guessing (and a very loose guess) that it was late 42. Kevin I would not let country of origin worry you about painting your carrier caunter... you know it makes sense for you to do it

I still say you need at least one in scicily style cammo (so I can put the presure on Shaun to get his done the same too)


cheers

Richie

[Ben]

I looked and only saw the March one, I'll have a look whats going on and email you.

Photos later

Ben

[eddy8men]

fort capuzzo 1941

[Lynn Eades]

I wonder if someone can tell us (Nigel W.?) when the first contract of Canadian Universals (MkI*) was started / produced?
If I am following Nigel's book correctly, all the carriers produced before number (C)T28,841 were British produced This is the lowest T number allocated to a Canadian contract.
The Photo on the bottom of page 119 of his first book, shows the 18th carrier built by Ford of Canada, in disruptive
Apart from the Indian units carrier (numberT34256, also a Brit carrier) the latest picture I can find in Caunter is T13779.

[cletrac (RIP)]

In Blueprint for Victory, Gregg states that Ford completed the Carrier assembly line in February 1941 and commenced production. In Military Vehicles Profiles he states that the first production carrier rolled out of the plant on Feb 8, 1941. By the end of 1941, 3000 had been produced.
The second picture is a Canadian produced Carrier in Tunisia from Blueprint for Victory.

[Lynn Eades]

Thankyou for that.
Interesting info from Doctor Gregg, on the replacement motors. That seems contrary to previous comments on here about the use of 95 h.p. engines in carriers.
Any info on Canadian colour schemes?

[Ben]

One for starters.....its a good one as far as I'm concerned showing the back end and detail of a Bren. I'll look for some UC pics after the kids are at school.

Ben

[Ben]

A few more from an IWM collection showing a column of Brens with a universal leading after arriving in Crete. I like how the commanding officer seems to have the "new" universal and the rest of the unit have the older Brens. I've only included the shots showing the UC as the brens aren't in the caunter scheme. One of the ones you posted is the last in the series.

Your turn for some Scout shots now ;-)

Ben

[kevin powles]

Ben, Nice pics, more info attached, shame the original Caunter CARRIER paint drawing is not bigger for better detail.

kevin.

[kevin powles]

Hi, I have applied a coat of 'Portland stone' as the base coat to the 1941 carrier and have ordered the two contrasting colours ('silver grey' and 'slate')for the Caunter scheme as directed in Mike's book, I plan to do the 1940 Carrier in a base colour of 'Light Stone' and apply the same two contrasting colours over the top.

So both carriers in Caunter, one with Portaland stone base colour and the other in Light stone base colour. I think this would be correct, it's all pretty confusing reading up on this subject, I plan to study as many original Caunter carrier pictures as possible and draw up some lines on the carriers for painting.

Mike's book confuses me with the front on picture and the looking down picture, If you study the area of the front drivers wing in the pictures, they depict something different in each picture??????????.

Any comment or help appreciated.

You see Matilda tanks restored in Caunter with a striking pale blue in the colour scheme, I understand this was due to Airfix getting the paint code wrong in the instructions for early models and its stuck ever since?.

kevin.

[kevin powles]

Hi, What if I go for the Malta Camo Scheme?, over the Portland Stone?.

The Pattern

The pattern, which was only used in Malta, had two main variations;
Light vehicles, guns, generators, motorcycles, tanks, etc. which had an irregular outline were painted in a pattern resembling the rubble walls which bordered each and every field. This consisted of shapeless blotches of light stone paint, with a darker colour (dark green or dark brown mostly, but sometimes any dark shade available) between the blotches.

Larger vehicles, especially those that had a squarish outline had the stone-coloured paint applied in rectangular blocks to resemble walls of buildings. The darker colour would thus be in straight lines to mimic the mortar and the gaps between the blocks. These vehicles would be parked next to a farmhouse and camouflaged further to resemble an extension of the building.

If the vehicle to be painted was in light stone colour, the dark pattern only was applied.
If on the other hand it was in green or dark earth, the light stone blotches would be painted on, leaving the original colour showing between them. In this case the census ( or WD ) number would not be painted over, leaving a dark patch with the white numbers on it.

Sometimes it is possible to tell from photos how the pattern was applied. If the stones had rounded corners, the stone colour was probably applied over a dark background, whilst if they had sharp angular corners the dark paint was probably applied on a stone-coloured background.

For such a small country, Malta has an amazing wealth of history. Due to its geographical position, Malta’s importance in the battle for the Mediterranean and North Africa was inversely proportional to its size!
Malta was awarded the George Cross for not only enduring the heaviest bombing campaign of WW2, but also for taking the fight back to the enemy.

In such a scenario, camouflage was of vital importance for survival. For this reason a camouflage scheme was devised for Malta, and was applied to all equipment destined to be exposed to the enemy. All cars, trucks, motorcycles, field guns, tanks etc. were ‘given the treatment’. Even steel helmets were painted, and not only those used by the services but also those issued to the ARP, the Police, the Public Works, and others.The Painting

This would usually be done by hand, and various factors, such as the availability of paint in suitable colours, the ability of the individual entrusted with the job, and his interpretation of the official instructions would all be working against any uniformity of results.
The ‘rubble wall’ effect sometimes ended up resembling pebbles, while the building block pattern could give one the impression that the builder was completely ignorant of his trade! A wartime photo even shows a truck with the blocks painted in VERTICAL courses! Another photo shows square blocks placed in a grid pattern. So much for blending in with buildings…..

Smaller items were usually not camouflaged but only painted in light stone to show their military ownership. Bicycles, petrol cans, tools, etc. did not have enough area to take the camouflage pattern, so were just left in light stone colour.

In an effort to further improve the effect, sand was sometimes sprinkled over the freshly-painted surface, especially on steel helmets. This eliminated glinting in the harsh Mediterranean sun, which would often be enough to give away one’s position.

Many objects which would not usually be taken into the field would be left in their original paint, but if obtained from the North African theatre of operations they would invariably be in light stone (or sand, as it was called over there).

Many photos of anti-aircraft guns show that the pattern was not applied, possibly because it is difficult for a pilot not to spot a gun that happens to be firing away at him, even if it is camouflaged!

[kevin powles]

More Pics.

[Ben]

Malta. End of thread.