Radioactivity and our hobby

[Rick DeBruyn]

In light of the discussion that went on here

close up picture of Mk1 Speedometer required

I thought I would provide this information on how Canada's regulator views these gauges and instruments. In Canada there are no restrictions in owning the gauges and equipment, however if you want to do any restoration work on the equipment you must have a CNSC Licence, which is very difficult and involved to get.

You will see a press release that came out today below

Best, Rick

CNSC Radiation Protection experts are participating in two upcoming Ottawa events to help educate the public and collectors on how to identify, safely handle and dispose of historic artifacts known as “radium luminous devices”.

A radium luminous device is a consumer or military product produced before 1960 and manufactured using a radium-based, glow-in-the-dark paint. The most common radium luminous devices are marine compasses and aircraft dials. Radium is a radioactive element found naturally in the environment. Although the radium in these devices remains radioactive for thousands of years, the paint itself breaks down and may no longer glow, making it hard to identify.

Ottawa Military Heritage Show
Nepean Sportsplex (Ottawa, ON)
October 28, 2012
9:00 a.m. – 3:00 p.m.

Visit CNSC Radiation Protection experts at the Ottawa Military Heritage Show on Sunday, October 28, 2012. Staff will be available to answer questions and to educate and help participants identify whether their military collectibles could contain radium.

Canadian Aviation and Space Museum
11 Aviation Parkway (Ottawa, ON)
November 4, 2012
10 a.m. to 4 p.m.

As part of the Canadian Aviation and Space Museum's "The Passion of Collecting” event, CNSC radiation experts will deliver a presentation on radium luminous devices, and educate collectors on how to identify, safely handle and dispose of broken or unwanted devices.

Read more about radium luminous devices:
http://www.nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/r...ices/index.cfm

Read more about the Canadian Aviation and Space Museum’s “The Passion of Collecting” event:
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/v...e_to_remember/

[maple_leaf_eh]

"... the paint itself breaks down and may no longer glow ..."

So, I shouldn't be licking the dust out from behind the guages' glasses?

BTW, I will try to get to the Nepean Sportsplex on Sat and will see if the nice men from the government have anything to add to the press release.

[rob love]

The radioactive folks actually booked a table and came out to the Military collectors club of Canada show in Winnipeg this summer. It was a very small show, but it seems they have the funds to get the word out. Overall, they seemed a lot more mellow than the radiation guys from the DND, whose policy seems to be "rip it all out, sieze it, bag it and tag it".

They have a number you can call if you have damaged or old radioactive items, and they will arrange collection.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Just finished reading all the material and resulted linked documents, my compliments to the Canadian Government and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission for actually putting out informative and not alarmist information, and for willingness to interact in a constructive manner with the collector hobbies. Well done.

Did a search for similar information on the US Government Web site us.gov using the search phrase "radium luminous device" got lots of results 37-41,000 but nothing identifiable as useful. Interestingly I did find one US Army document date June 1999 that basically said all vehicles and aircraft produced before 1969 should have the gauges removed before the vehicles are disposed of by the US Government. The search did turn up some interesting reading but generally long winded and technical.

My reading of the situation, won't be taking any of the military style gauges apart.

Cheers Phil

Cheers Phil

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

I did find one US Army document date June 1999 that basically said all vehicles and aircraft produced before 1969 should have the gauges removed before the vehicles are disposed of by the US Government.

That's why the Netherlands Army's GMC CCKW trucks disposed of in the 1980s had their dials removed. They were supplied under MDAP so were handed back to the USA after being struck off service. The US government did the correct thing by having the second careful user remove the hazardous material before selling off the trucks on their behalf.

H.

[Richard Farrant]

I remember back in the 70/80's, a lot of the lorries in Britsh Army had their guages checked for radioactivity. Most "amusing" thing was the air guages on the AEC Militants, they affixed a warning triangle label on the face so you could not read the air brake pressure

[Bob Carriere]

What if the Canadian Guverment finds out the risk of working on CMPs.... dropping axles off the axle stand, smearing ourselves in cancer producing petroleum compounds, sandblasting lead base paint, siphoning gas with our mouthes, and eating breakfast at Rosa without washing our hands......countless mind numbing hours on the web looking at MLU postings....

.... we will all be confiscated !!! bagged and tagged......


We are heading for H*ll .........

Bob

[rob love]

As I recall, when the drivers took their 5 tons over to supply to turn them in, they parked the trucks out back and had to bring the control panels in to the R&D guys. I think all those trucks went to Cold Lake for targets. Most of them were 1976 vintage, so likely would not have had the radium gauges anyway unless some old stock turned up.

Back in the 90s, I helped set up an outdoor museum display at the Moose Jaw armouries. A few years after I left that province, the geiger counter guys went through and if the alarm read any amount of radioactivity from any one of the guages, they undid the four screws on the control panel and ripped the whole thing out.

[Harry Moon]

My CMP set off the radiation detectors at the border a couple of times. Kind of an interesting exercise for them. My speedometer and oil pressure gauge are the only original ones and while they don't even glow after holding a flashlight on them they still set off the detectors. I'm actually quite happy that they can pick up that minute amount.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Those guys should go to Russia. I had a talk with an oilfield worker who worked over there and he told about a glass-like patch of ground they crossed. Oh, that's just where we put out a well fire with a tactical nuke! Nobody even considered that there might be a radiation problem! I told him to get a personal radiation detector and carry it at all times.

[Eric B]

A few years back i borrowed a radiation detector and tested various vehicles and gauges that i had access to.

The 19 set on/off switch (glow in the dark removable cap) and the 1953 M38, 1953 M38A1 Convoy light switch cap had the highest readings while the needles on the original MB gauges were also high. These were very localized and the readings dropped drastically when the detector was moved farther away.

The 1967 M38A1 and 1974 M151A2 gauges did not pick up any substantial radiation.

The original WW2 gauges did have radioactive readings, higher than personal limits permitted.

The reproduction gauges had no readings.

If the gauges are off white, closer to a cream colour, thicker than normal, cracking, flat finish, then there is a good chance that it is original and is radioactive. Do not take these apart to rebuild.

I have talked to US Border Patrol Supervisors and they suggested that we notify them in advance if we plan on taking a MV across the border, which might have radioactive gauges. So that when the sensor alarms go off they have an idea of what it is.

The article was published in CMP #42 2007.

Thanks

Eric

[chris vickery]

Opening up a can of worms, great is all I can say. Just a nail in the coffin to yet another nice hobby we all enjoy...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

All, well done bringing this to our attention. Again, an example of the wealth of knowledge and experience available on MLU!

If you believe it or not, this is part of our hobby and we have to take care of it. Thanks to those concerned for bringing this to our attention.

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Opening up a can of worms, great is all I can say. Just a nail in the coffin to yet another nice hobby we all enjoy...

Sure Chris, stick your head into the ground like an ostrich. I'm sure no-one will find out, even though the radiation experts know the risks and the governing bodies have policies in place to protect you from the dangers of radiation.

I'd like to second what Lynn said on the thread close up picture of Mk1 Speedometer required:

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

I have to thank you for the efforts you have made to to bring this risk to the public attention.
I realise you needed to ask all the questions to satisfy your own worries, but you didn't have to make it public. We appreciate the fact that you have given us the warning.
I have to wonder how many of us have already had exposure to some degree, as children, playing with old surplus aircraft instruments and the like.
Your concern for the rest of us, means that we can now make an informed choice on how we go forward.
I am sure that you will have changed someones life for the better.
Life is fragile

[RichardT10829]

Good show Rick, nice to know folk are looking into this..... Rob, its also interesting to note different organisations treat the issue ith different approaches, this echo'd in the initial thread between Medical and Industrial companies...... problem is that not enough is known YET but hopefully with raised awareness folk can take steps to protect themselves and familie's or know what steps to take if they need a gauge removed etc etc

[Casey B]

Well I knew there was something weird looking about those gauges in the jeep! They looked crusty and well old Haha like many of us so I was thinking of redoing the faces etc..this winter. Hey I could save on Xrays or even better open my own private X-Ray lab out here in BC! That's the latest... private medicine right?
All kidding aside I'll check to see if they glow with a light and then the black light...and no I will leave em where they are for now. They seem to work so no need to wreck it right?

Thanks for the info good thing to know especially when buying a rebuilt guage! Was it opened and repainted with the bad stuff lurking under the new paint?

From the wet west coast...Casey

[Casey B]

Nope no glow but I did check it with a LED flash light? Light is light right?
Pretty much white with the cream coloured end of each needle and the numbers look a little like the day old whip cream...a little crusty and off white?
I am not gonna run out and buy rent a gyger counter to make sure.
Maybe the radiation chick that goes to Chernobyle will come and check for us...? just a thought.

[Lang]

This is a good description of the dangers of old instruments.

Basically, leave them alone. If you use them as designed they offer little danger so long as you don't carry them around in your pocket continuously. Looks like we all have to destroy our pre-1960's watches!

http://www.trademarklondon.com/Radiation/index.html

Lang

[RichardT10829]

AAAAARGH ! I have my grandad's field compass and have had since I was eight ! I used to take it everywhere with me, in my pocket!!! I always wondered why the direction of travel marker appeared rusty and brown.... It's painted in the outside of the glass too...... Oh lord !

[chris vickery]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Sure Chris, stick your head into the ground like an ostrich. I'm sure no-one will find out, even though the radiation experts know the risks and the governing bodies have policies in place to protect you from the dangers of radiation.

Hanno, I agree that we should be safe and be informed etc but I do not think this is a case of sticking my head in the sand as you point out.
This topic has been covered in the past on MLU as well as in various MV publications, I believe that hobbyists have knowledge of the situation.
Pointing out the obvious and drawing attention to the hobby IS counter-productive. Involvement of Government in our hobby is also detrimental.
All it will take is a motion to outlaw or ban publicly owned military vehicles because of the "dangerous nature" they pose to the greater good of our society.
If you do not believe there are already motions afoot to do such things, then you my friend are the one who has his head in the sand.
Personally, I am a purist when doing a restoration. I like my original equipment. Should those in power decide for us that it is in everyones best interest to ban, destroy or outlaw this part of MV equipment, WE are forced to use civilian parts. I can see this happening as was pointed out in a previous post when the Government pulled dash boards before auction.
Perhaps the military nature of these vehicles will also be brought forward as they become deemed "threatening to the public". I can see some bureaucrat deciding whats best as well and having US paint them in bright colours to differentiate publicly owned MVs from real in service equipment. Personally, I do not want a red army truck nor a yellow one. If I did, I would collect fire trucks but then again I can see someone thinking that WE should not be able to own those either.
We are aware of lead paint, radioactive gauges etc. In industry, the control measures to eliminate such things are a never ending stream of redtape, paper, documentation and government inspection and control, not to mention the tremendous costs. Metal refinishing is already under the microscope because of lead, remediation, control and disposal of waste being looked at. It could get to a point where even sandblasting becomes cost prohibitive to the average hobbyists. Imagine having to pay for HAZMAT disposal for your luminous gauages as well? Or maybe having to aquire special licensing to own, use, transport, buy, sell, trade etc your MV or to even work on it with special training and tools?
I have been through all this crap before in the gun collecting hobby with those in power deciding whats in the best interest of the public with zero to little knowledge of facts, smoke screening the public from real issues (such as crime, drugs etc) and blaming law abiding people for their lack of control and responsiblity. I digress.
In the best interest of OUR hobby I believe in letting sleeping dogs lay, instead promote positive aspects to Officials instead of the negative and possibly detrimental ones which may bite US in the END.

[Frank v R]

what Chris said, this stuff went out the door 50 years ago , we've been living with this stuff our entire lives , from desert nuke tests to all the MV's at the bottom of every ocean , in every forest , in every desert , in every jungle, not to mention all the aircraft , radios , etc,and all the nuke accidents , nothing they could do now will ever make any difference, other than to ruin our lives with more regs.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

This topic has been covered in the past on MLU as well as in various MV publications, I believe that hobbyists have knowledge of the situation.

Chris, I am not sure this is a correct assumption, seeing the myriad of questions coming back up on this forum during the past decade alone. New people enter the hobby all the time, not having the collective knowledge yet. Hence it is important to point out the pitfalls, plus publish new information on a certain subject like Rick has done.

Pointing out the obvious and drawing attention to the hobby IS counter-productive. Involvement of Government in our hobby is also detrimental.
All it will take is a motion to outlaw or ban publicly owned military vehicles because of the "dangerous nature" they pose to the greater good of our society.
If you do not believe there are already motions afoot to do such things, then you my friend are the one who has his head in the sand.

In today's transparent society, not talking about potential "dangers" is counterproductive and will bite you in the tail when the "sleeping" dogs wake up. Do not think the governing bodies are asleep!

I think the Canadian example is a good one on how to handle a potentially dangerous situation. The risks are minimal if people know what to do, and are not to be compared to the risks of firearms which therefore require other rules & regulations.

H.