Outer Wheel Bearings

[gary_bath_jr]

Hey All

I took the hubs of the front of my C-15A to look at the brakes and thought that I aoule be able to make due with the current bearings, that was however until I set the hub down on my deck and heard a clunk and a bit of rattling. I flipped the hub over to find that the bearing was secure until I set it in the worst possible location as the oter part of the bearing that holds the rollers was sitting on the deck and most of the rollers were sitting beside but a lot of them slipped through the cracks.

I found the document on the forum with the modern part numbers and ordered the new bearings, my problem is that the inner part of the old bearings is still on the Hub. I have removed the 3 screws on the face and tried to hammer the bearing out but it is not moving at all.

Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get this part out without destroying the hub? Or a really cheap set of front hubs for a C-15A as this is the only thing stopping my truck from rolling on it's brand new tyres.

I plan on locating my original post stating that I got my truck and adding pictures of the before during and after resto pictures, I had a lot of help from people here and would like to show them where the info and parts went to.

Thanks
Gary

[rob love]

Bust out any remaining rollers and cage, and wipe out all the grease you can get out of there. Pressure wash the hub or clean it in the solvent bath. Once it is reasonably clean, heat the cone race with an oxy acetylene torch and quickly punch it through the three holes. Propane heat will likely work too, but you really want the heat in there quick, so it does not have time to get onto the hub. If the bearings failed, it may have been because of water contamination, in which case the bearing may be rusted to the hub. Or it may have spun a bit, in which case it also will be on tight. Or it may be cocked ever so slightly.....you would then have to figure out which way it is cocked and punch the opposite two holes.

You could also try some long threaded bolts and tighten them equally to force the cone out. While metric bolts are available threaded all the way, you may end up having to thread the standard bolts to get enough thread to get you anywhere. Oil the threads for extra force.

If the outer bearing is bad, then you may want to do the work to get into the inner bearing and properly repack it. And of course, the opposite side. And once you go for the inner bearings, you will usually find that the upper kingpin bearings are shot too, and they can be pricey and hard to find.

[T Creighton]

Hi Garry,
Just run a bead of arc welding right around the centre inside of the race. It will fall out once it cools and the weld shrinks.
Regards,
Terry

[Private_collector]

I agree with Terry!!!

I have done this on my CMP rear end, and it works VERY well.

[rob love]

I have heard of (and used) this method for the outer races, but in the case of the cone, won't it make it even tighter?

[T Creighton]

Hi Rob, You are certainly right about that.
I understood Garry was trying to get the cup out of the hub. For the cone I grind a big flat on it (keeping well clear of the axle surface) with the angle grinder. One hit with a cold chisel should loosen it.
Cheers Terry

[gary_bath_jr]

Hey Terry and Rob

Sorry if I caused any confusion but I took a picture of the part I am talking about. If the welding idea is still plausible I will try that out very soon.

Also I took my tranny to a "Professional" who really hosed me and made me miss the AC12 Convoy he also had my transfercase but was unable to get one gear of so he could not remove the cover. Is there a special puller to get this part off?

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Gary

I hear what the guys are saying about heating etc. But lets get back to the three holes and how the manual says to tap out the bearing. Here is the trick I have used with success.

1. Take a punch that will slip down through the three holes easily. Not a tight fit just in case the head mushrooms you want to be able to pull it out. Make a punch head for your air chisel, find a piece of tubing to hold your punch square on the punch head of the air chisel.

2. Vibrate the bearing using punch and the air chisel, keep working around the three holes. Don't really lean on it you just want to vibrate it at first. After you have vibrated each point a couple of times then you can increase the pressure.

Keep an eye on how far your punch is going it so that you don't end up cocking the bearing race.

This approach has worked every time for me.


Heating the bearing race may actually be counter productive because it will make the race expand hard against the hub. Though heating and letting it cool may help. Think this is what makes the welding bead trick work. Or if you can heat the whole assembly and then cool just the bearing race that may let you tap it out.

Let us know what works.

Cheers Phil

[gary_bath_jr]

Hey Phil

That worked!! I got the broken peice out, the only problem I had was one of the screws will not come out so I had to work around that. I sprayed it several times with Liquid Wrench and will try to get it out later.

Now that I have the old ones out do I need to press the new ones in or will they go in when I tighten the wheel nut?

Thank You!!
Gary

[rob love]

Pack the new bearing with grease first, then use the bearing spacer to knock the bearing into place. Note that there are likely shims on the end of the bearing spacer....you may have to adjust the shims for the new bearing although in reality, bearings are usually a very tight spec, and there is not a lot of variation in tolerance between them. Refer to the manual on how to adjust the bearing with the shims and a dial gauge.

Some early vehicles did not use the spacer, but rather the nut on the end of the axle shaft did the adjusting. I ran into one of these a short time ago when I was salvaging parts for another truck at the local museum.

[Phil Waterman]

I'd follow the manual on how to instal and set up the shims if needed. Get the one stuck screw out before you go forward because if you have pull the bearing again you don't want to get it wedged.

Now that you have the bearing out can you take another picture of the hub and the old bearing so we can better understand what happened.

The outer bearing on all of my Chevs are tapered roller which means that all you are installing is the race, assume that is the same on yours.

When possible I use a bearing press to push bearings in or on, being very sure that it goes in straight. If I have to tap it in again I try and use a round flat pushing tool. One of my CCKW friends always saves the race of the bearing he is replacing he chucks this up in the lath and with a grinder takes just enough off the diameter so that it is a drop fit into the housing. He uses that as his push tool to put the new bearing in. Neat trick that I have now adopted, got a drawer of old bearing races.

One last point try to avoid, for obviously reasons, tapping or driving steel on steel with a hammer, I use wood blocks like oak or some other hardwood to keep from chipping your new part or the machined surfaces around it.

Glad the air chisel drift idea work for you.

Cheers Phil

[gary_bath_jr]

Hey Phil and Rob

I had a look at the manual and it appears that I am missing some parts. I do not have any shims on my setup, here are pictures of the old bearing and the parts that I have for my wheels, I set everything in order as to how they came off.

Gary

[T Creighton]

Originally Posted by gary_bath_jr

Hey Terry and Rob
Also I took my tranny to a "Professional" who really hosed me and made me miss the AC12 Convoy he also had my transfercase but was unable to get one gear of so he could not remove the cover. Is there a special puller to get this part off?

Hi Garry, Looking at fig. 24 Page N9 in the MB F1 manual that gear (or clutch dog) does not have to be removed to take off the cover. Figs 29 and 30 show the dog being removed from the shaft.
Glad you had good luck getting the hub bearings out.
Regards, Terry

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Gary

Good photos, I've learned to do just what you have done take an assembly apart laying the parts in order then take a picture. Boy it makes putting things back together so much easier.

Only thing I didn't see was the outer race which should be in the hub assembly. What condition is it in? Does the new bearing there in the box both the inner and outer races?

As to the shims not all of hub assemblies had shims on my three only one hub had a separate shim. So when you assemble it follow the steps in the manual to determine if it actually needs a shim. There is more info on this in the Service Bulletins if you get in a bind.

As I assume you have removed both front hubs to check the brakes, I would offer a word of caution. Be particularly careful when you reassemble the axle nuts and keepers. Particularly on the LEFT side as the direction of rotation tries to loosen that side. I nearly lost a left wheel assembly when the keeper sheared and the nuts came loose (http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H...0a%20wheel.htm
I had used a keeper that I had made out of lighter gauge metal, big mistake. Whole saga is in http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=13417.

Cheers Phil

[gary_bath_jr]

Hey Terry

I kind of thought that it did not have to come off, the guy that was looking at it claimed to have spent several hours trying to get it and the cover off and researching how to get it off but was unable to. I am going to try to remove it myself (the cover) and will order new seals at that point, I do have another t-case here from my C-60 but it has a large hole in it.

Does anyone know if it is possible to order a replacement part for the transmission or if anyone has a spare or 2 as both of mine appear to have been run with loose bolts in the driveshaft and broke the peice in the photo's below on both trucks.

Gary

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Gary

This damage is as you probably guessed caused by the universal joint bolts getting loose hitting the heads of the transmission bolts. Yours is the worst busted up one I've seen. Interestingly yours appears to be cast iron while all the ones on my truck are pot metal.





From the Chevy parts book it was used over wide period 38-4? with the 4 speed transmission with open drive shaft. All of the non-CMP ones I have seen have the speedometer drive in them. But that doesn't cause a problem you will just need to plug the speedo drive and bearing holes. In fact the transmission in my C60L which is a `41 had the complete speedometer drive assembly in the retainer.

If you can not find one on a junk transmission. You might try Obsolete Chevrolet Parts http://www.obschevy.com/ I've had good luck find parts through them, I check on line to see if they had it but didn't see it listed, but they have had other stuff I've needed that was not listed or once I described it they had another part that would fit or interchange. May take sending them a picture of your part.

Cheers Phil

[Stew Robertson]

Hey Gary what's under the kilt?
I think the balls fell out!

[Harry Moon]

The cause is not loose bolts but the lack of the spacer ring on the output shaft. I'll look up the thread and pictures from several years back on this forum. It's a ring made of flat steel 3/8ths wide wrapped around the shaft and butt welded. It keeps the output flange from being drawn up to tight against the transmission. the ring is NOT in the parts book and the military output flange is 3/8ths shorter than a civvy one.

[Harry Moon]

Originally Posted by Harry Moon

The cause is not loose bolts but the lack of the spacer ring on the output shaft. I'll look up the thread and pictures from several years back on this forum. It's a ring made of flat steel 3/8ths wide wrapped around the shaft and butt welded. It keeps the output flange from being drawn up to tight against the transmission. the ring is NOT in the parts book and the military output flange is 3/8ths shorter than a civvy one.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...?t=8976&page=4
Look up post 116(?) on this thread Gary for the transmission cause/fix

[gary_bath_jr]

Hey Harry

Thanks for that info. Is there a trick to geting the cover of the transfer case off? I have tried to take the smalled peice off the cover and the cover but it will not budge around the spot where that flange is, (check the pics of the transfer case in previous posts).

Gary

[gary_bath_jr]

I went out and took some pictures of the part I am talking about.

Gary

[gary_bath_jr]

Well I figured it out, Brute force and ignorance works everytime. I had to use a small sledgehammer but the cover finally came off. The great news is that all the gears and bearings look good, all I need to get is new seals and gaskets.

Gary

[gary_bath_jr]

More pictures of the t-case.

[Bob Carriere]

HI Gary

If you take ID and OD measurments to an industrial bearing shop all the parts....bearings and races are still available.... you may need to invest in some speedy sleeves to cover wear grooves in the yoke's shaft surface......

....about $700 worth for a full set for a 2 speed T-case.

Carefull with the metal shims....cut new paper shims with a very light coating of silicone....... you may need another spare T-case for extra shims...... gears have to be preloaded just right.... final results you should be able to rotate the yokes by hand... too loose it will rattle..... any tighter will be too much.... MB-C2 is a good guide for the set up.....

I pre-greased all bearings with a light coating of moly lub during assembly....

I also used synthetic lub...... nice but as a tendency to leak.... like a CMP was designed to do .......

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

CMPs don't leak they marking their territory.

Getting the bearing pre-load is tough, I wish there was a way to really check the transfer cases under-load before reinstalling them in the truck.

I agree go by the manual step by step. The shim sets were I believe originally coated with shellac, modern equivlent is Permatex product Permatex® Indian Head® Gasket Shellac Compound

http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...c_Compound.htm

Seams to work but the synthetic lubricants do leak through almost anything. Only problem I've seen is that if it thickens up any it will not squeeze out from between the shims when you tighten the unit up, which kind of blows the fine adjustment of the shims, plus you have to clean all the shims each time you disassemble to add or remove shims to get the pre-loading perfect, personally I doubt that I have ever gotten a bearing load "perfect" usually I end up with good enough.

I wonder if the original Shellac sealant had a longer cure time?

Cheers Phil

[gary_bath_jr]

Hey guys

All your talk about pre-loading is making me worry a little, I have to work on the t-case myself. Does anyone know if Gaskets are available for the t-case and tranny? Or do I have to make them out of cardboard and use the permatex to coat them?

Gary

[rob love]

If, when you are talking about using cardboard you mean like an old cereal box, then don't. You can coat it with anything you want but it will still soak up the oil like a sponge and leak it out. Sure, it's an OK fix to get you home, but if you are trying to do a job right, then you need to use proper gasket paper. It is available in various thicknesses, so if you have some of the old gasket left, use a set of calipers to try and get the same thickness. This is important as the bearing preload can be affected by the thickness of the gasket. When you are worrying about .004 preload, then substituting .120 thick paper for .015 thickness will not do.

[gary_bath_jr]

Hey Rob

Thanks for that info. Do you think NAPA or CTC would sell gasket paper for me to make them? I kept the peices of old gasket so I will be able to get the proper thickness. I was hoping there would be a modern part number for them so that I could order them however the document I found in the forum here does not have any gaskets just bearings and seals.

Thanks Gary

[Grant Bowker]

My local Canadian Tire does sell gasket paper, but have cut down on the number of thicknesses in recent years (their selection now sucks in the worst possible way (one thickness only), it could only be worse if they didn't stock it at all).

Try a google on "karropak gasket paper". It comes in 1/64 and 1/32 thicknesses and quite possibly others as well.
An interesting thread on gaskets (for use in carbs - but the basic info transfers to other uses) can be found at http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89564
Post 13 in the thread shows thicknesses available and part numbers (for example FPG 3045) and the price the poster found at NAPA a couple of years ago at the time of the posting.