In the background

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Richard Coutts-Smith

The last pic at least looks like the Jap surrender at Borneo

Apologies Richard, I forgot to include the link to these pics, which gives the location as Lae, not Borneo as in Keith's pics. Nice work on your part to make the connection - it's definitely the same a/c as can be seen in the camouflage detail on the fin (pics 1 and 2 below).

Here's the link to the Lae pics: http://www.antiaircraft.org.au/photo...new-guinea/lae

It took me a while to identify the a/c type but eventually I found pic 3 on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachikawa_Ki-54 (aircraft recognition is even more fun than identifying CMPs!)

[Tony Wheeler]

Here's another "CMP in the background" from the same site, this time a CGT 8 at Buna. I've come across other pics of CGT 8s being landed here, and even some brief footage of a CGT 8 with short 25 pdr in tow, turning off the beach into the jungle. From memory it's on the ANZAC 3-disc series - I shall locate again and post here.

Here's the link to the image below: http://www.antiaircraft.org.au/photo.../buna/buna-657

On the same site can be found some rare pics of cab 12 FATs in Australia:
http://www.antiaircraft.org.au/photo...ure/townsville

[aj.lec]

On the same site can be found some rare pics of cab 12 FATs in Australia:
http://www.antiaircraft.org.au/photo...ure/townsville

This raises a question -Did these featured gun tractors stay in Australia or where they deployed overseas and not return ?
Where are they now I wonder?

[cliff]

There is a fully restored one here in Gympie

[Mike Cecil]

Tony,

REF: 'Apologies Richard, I forgot to include the link to these pics, which gives the location as Lae, not Borneo as in Keith's pics.

The C60X is labelled 47 OBU, ie 47 Operational Base Unit. From April to November 1945, this unit was located on Labuan Island. They had not been in New Guinea since their move to New Britain in March 1944.

There is the remains (fuselage in poor repair) of a 'Hickory' in the AWM collection. It was one of the aircraft used to ferry Japanese reps to a surrender ceremony - don't remember which one. It was marked with large green crosses over the Rising Suns. Both are visible etched into the Aluminium of the rear fuselage.

Edit update: I've just checked the AWM site, and if you type 'Hickory' into 'Collections Search' you get a seriers of images of a KI-54C Hickory on Labuan Island. One image shows the tail, left side, and it looks pretty much identical to the pattern on the image posted here. So I suggest the images are of the surrender party landing at Labuan Island, Borneo rather than Lae, NG. I seem to remember that the AWM fuselage is this aircraft.

Mike C

[Mike K]

Those pics make you wonder.

At that stage of the war . How many serviceable aircraft did the Japs have around Borneo ? And, where did they manage to find the fuel ? Unless the Allies supplied the fuel for that aeroplane . The Jap uniforms seem to be clean and they are not starving by the look of them .

The main thrust had by passed that area and the Japs were pretty well cut-off from theri supply chain.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

So I suggest the images are of the surrender party landing at Labuan Island, Borneo rather than Lae, NG. I seem to remember that the AWM fuselage is this aircraft.

Yes, there was a query in my mind as to the location - Lae didn't make much sense to me at this late stage of the war.

As you say Mike, camouflage detail confirms this as the same a/c pictured in the AWM series, and other detail including personnel present indicates it was the same occasion.

Also, AWM descriptions confirm this to be the fuselage in the collection as you say:

"THIS AIRCRAFT, A TACHIKAWA KI-54C (HICKORY) WAS FLOWN TO AUSTRALIA AND WAS AT RAAF FAIRBAIRN FOR MANY YEARS. THE AIRCRAFT IS NOW IN THE COLLECTION OF THE AUSTRALIAN WAR MEMORIAL."

"This aircraft, a Tachikawa Ki-54c (Hickory) was flown to Australia and was at RAAF Fairburn for many years. It is now at the RAAF museum at Point Cook, Victoria."

If the fuselage is all that remains of this a/c today, I wonder what happened to the rest of it...? Perhaps the following may be a clue as to its fate over the years:

"While the aircraft was at Labuan 300276 Warrant Officer Leonard Anthony (Len) Pearce and his crew had the responsibility for servicing the aircraft. As a souvenir of the event he removed the engine plates from the aircraft, one of which is now in the collection of the Australian War Memorial."

AWM image below depicts a plate removed from the shock absorber. It's a shame this historic a/c wasn't preserved for display.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

It's a shame this historic a/c wasn't preserved for display.

Actually it occurs to me that it may have simply decayed - apparently this type was codenamed "Hickory" because it was made of wood.

[Mike Cecil]

Tony

The story of its demise is a little less 'glamorous' than that: as I understand it, it was left for some years beside the strip at F/bairn, then, in derelict condition, stripped (remainder scrapped) and the fuselage moved to the Primary School, where it became a childrens play-thing, before the remains were eventually moved to the RAAF Museum at Point Cook. I think it was around 2000 that it was offered (and accepted) by the AWM. It was wrapped up and racked in the Mitchell storage Annex when last I saw it.

Don't know about the use of hickory in it's construction. Mondey's 'Axis Aircraft of WW2' talks about a timber version prototype, the KI-110 and plans for a KI-114 as being 'all wood', but refers to the KI-54 series being of 'conventional construction'. I have had a look inside the fuselage, and don't remember seeing any wood: just all-aluminium.

There were a number of complete/near complete Japanese aircraft in Australia after WW2, but most were simply scrapped after several years of neglect. In hindsight, a real shame, but at the time, they were just 'junk' without any hope of adequate undercover storage. The Lancaster, G for George, was similarly treated after WW2, so it's almost good luck that it was moved to the AWM in the 1950s, and didn't suffer the same fate.

Mike C

[Mike K]

I recall reading somewhere, the USAAC had a section based in Brisbane ( Archerfield ? ) where captured Jap aircraft were test flown . Imagine the sight of a Zero flying around the Brisbane area during WW2 .

Can anyone confirm this ?


Found the site http://www.ozatwar.com/usaaf/atiu.htm



Mike

[Col Tigwell]

Yes that is correct and if you do searches on Eagle Farm the story will unfold

Regards

Col

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

There were a number of complete/near complete Japanese aircraft in Australia after WW2, but most were simply scrapped after several years of neglect. In hindsight, a real shame, but at the time, they were just 'junk'....The Lancaster, G for George, was similarly treated after WW2, so it's almost good luck that it was moved to the AWM in the 1950s, and didn't suffer the same fate.

As you say Mike, it's lucky we have G for George today - arguably the centrepiece of the entire AWM collection.

We often shake our heads in amazement at the way these priceless historical relics were treated back then, but as you say they were simply junk at the time. It takes a lot of foresight to recognize future historical value in any object - we only have to think of the old cars we've taken to the tip when we were young, or even the cheap tin toys we played with as children - many of which are highly collectible today.

A further factor I believe, in relation to war relics, was the general desire of that generation to put these memories behind them and get on with their lives - find jobs, build homes, start families, pursue careers, etc. The absolute last thing on anyone's mind would be to preserve the reminders of friends lost, and of their own personal ordeal in war. In particular, the Japanese aircraft would appear to them as vile objects, best destroyed rather than preserved. It would take a brave man to propose restoration of a Jap aircraft in the immediate post-war years. Even 30 years later, most of that generation refused to even own a Japanese car!

Perhaps it was fitting that the Hickory wound up in a primary school playground - Australian men and women who endured the war could rightly take some satisfaction at the sight of their joyful young children frolicking on the wrecked Japanese surrender plane. Rather symbolic when you think about it...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Have we seen this pic on here before?

Name the three vehicles in the first picture.

Second picture has the same vehicle in the forground plus a CMP in the background of course.

H.

[wim sikkelbein]

Vickers Utility B tractor
LVT-3 bushmaster
cmp

p.s. next time remember to change the photo names.

[Mike Cecil]

I came across this image while tidying up a recent acquisition of paperwork from my uncle's estate. He was an Army engineer in the late 50s and early 1960s (Capt MJK Lodge, RAE), who was seconded to the RAAF to manage airfield runway works at East Sale and Darwin.

The image was taken at East Sale in 1961. Just beyond the Blaw-Knox concrete spreader (RAAF registration 218142) are three vehicles: the FE or FC GM-Holden Utility is easy to spot. These were a common vehicle in RAAF, RAN and Army service. They were contract vehicles built specially for the services and equipped with a number of minor modifications from the standard Civilian utes, such as a grill over the rear cab glass, and no car radio. Obscured by the Blaw-Knox is a standard CMP truck, probably the RAAF 'heavy tender' with demountable drop sides (the rear edge of the body is just visible).

The truck in the middle distance is unique to Australia and indeed, to the RAAF. While many will recognise it as a soft top HAR-1, few will know the designation....... anyone want to have a try?

In the far background, through the early morning mist, is the outline of a C-47 Dakota and some other vehicles that are just toooo blurred to recognise with any accuracy.

Mike C

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

I came across this image while tidying up a recent acquisition of paperwork from my uncle's estate. He was an Army engineer in the late 50s and early 1960s (Capt MJK Lodge, RAE), who was seconded to the RAAF to manage airfield runway works at East Sale and Darwin.

The image was taken at East Sale in 1961. Just beyond the Blaw-Knox concrete spreader (RAAF registration 218142) are three vehicles: the FE or FC GM-Holden Utility is easy to spot. These were a common vehicle in RAAF, RAN and Army service. They were contract vehicles built specially for the services and equipped with a number of minor modifications from the standard Civilian utes, such as a grill over the rear cab glass, and no car radio. Obscured by the Blaw-Knox is a standard CMP truck, probably the RAAF 'heavy tender' with demountable drop sides (the rear edge of the body is just visible).

The truck in the middle distance is unique to Australia and indeed, to the RAAF. While many will recognise it as a soft top HAR-1, few will know the designation....... anyone want to have a try?

Mike ..Does this ring a bell..??
42: 120 pages NO NUMBER FOUR WHEEL DRIVE AUTO CO. PARTS BOOK, FWD MODEL HAR TRUCKS, RIGHT-HAND STEER, (March '42). Illustrated.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the far background, through the early morning mist, is the outline of a C-47 Dakota and some other vehicles that are just toooo blurred to recognise with any accuracy.

Mike C

Got any tough ones..??

[Mike Cecil]

Alex,

Apparently this one is a tough one: yes, its a HAR-1 (I said that) ...... but what is its actual designation??

I did give a big hint: unique to the RAAF!! I'll go even further: unique to Airfield Construction Squadrons of the RAAF!

Mike C

[Mike K]

I recall seeing a AWM pic of a HAR in RAAF service , taken during WW2 . Or am I wrong again. I will try to find it. Mike

[Mike Cecil]

You're right, Mike: the HAR-1 was used in RAAF service from mid-WW2 until the early to mid-1960s, so you probably did see an AWM image of one during WW2 . They were used in a couple of configurations: a small number as tractors (also used in small numbers by Army in this configuration), but the majority as 'Truck, Heavy, Tipper'. This latter configuration was an Australian-made wooden tipper body with a steel floor, and an Australian hoist, hence my previous comment about them being unique to Australia. They equipped the Airfield Construction Sqns, and served in various overseas areas in the post-war period, including Iwakuni in Japan during the occupation. I don't know any other country that equipped their HAR-1s as tipper ('dump') trucks.

Mike C

[lynx42]

Mike C and Mike K you both know someone who used to drive these FWD's as tippers.

Alan Newton, one of the founding fathers of the Corowa Swim-In, was with the RAAF at East Sale in Victoria and drove the FWD HAR-1 Truck, Heavy, Tipper, during his time there. He has a few stories to tell about them.

I have one of these trucks, just a cab chassis without the tipper and a cab off another. Both cabs have markings from their RAAF days. They were/are a sandy colour with a black chassis.

Regards Rick.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Alex,

Apparently this one is a tough one: yes, its a HAR-1 (I said that) ...... but what is its actual designation??

I did give a big hint: unique to the RAAF!! I'll go even further: unique to Airfield Construction Squadrons of the RAAF!

Mike C

Mike ..We may be splitting hairs here but HAR -1 was the designation model number...
The truck was a FWD..(Four Wheel Drive Company) and as a HAR-1 there were many ways to dress it up with options..same as the CCKW....GMC being the Maker and CCKW being the designated model number..
Got any beer you want to argue over..I'll come down..or you come for a visit to Ottawa..and we can have a great gather up with all the CMP and carrier junkies..around here..
Alex.
Entertainment Chairman.
ROTters of Ottawa.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Alex,

Apparently this one is a tough one: yes, its a HAR-1 (I said that) ...... but what is its actual designation??

I did give a big hint: unique to the RAAF!! I'll go even further: unique to Airfield Construction Squadrons of the RAAF!

Mike C

Mike ..IF you mean..what were they used for..(but what is its actual designation??) I lost something in the translation from OZ to Canuck..but we use them in the RCAF in canada with Duals on them and with single wheels as Runway snow blowers..
Pretty sure we were still using them in Chatham New Brunswick when was posted there as a lad in .'63,...

HA HA!!!!
I was right..
They did have the FWD HAR 1's as snow blowers..along with Sicards and others ..But this is a list of artifacts that are going into a museum dedicated to the BCATP..(British Commonwealth Air Training Plan..
Here is the list of vehicles..

Vehicles - R.C.A.F. - 1940s
Staff car, Six-wheel-drive Crash Tender, Half ton truck, Ford airfield tractor, Jeep, Aircraft refueling tanker, FWD Airport Snow-blower and two RCAF military trucks. This collection will eventually be housed in our new Motor Transport building.
Check this out..
http://www.airmuseum.ca/bcatp.html
And if you want a good read on history read about the Canadian BCATP..
But The Canadian air training plan started in WW1 ,because we were out of harms way ..and the RAF was loosing trained pilots faster than they could train them ,...
The first World War set a precedent for the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan ( B.C.A.T.P. ) in Canada. Fully two thirds of the 21,000 Canadians who served in Britain's air forces in the First World War entered through the RFC/RAF Canada, a recruiting and training organization established in Canada but controlled from London and commanded by a British officer.

We even trained the Americans to fly and had our Canadian flying training bases set up in Texas for winter flying..we were flying in Texas two years before the USA even got into WW1.
WE had tons of Americans flying in the RAF as Canadians than anyone could believe ..Quite a story..
We were instrumental in helping their people set up their own flying schools using our training packages,...
So Yes the Canadians did train the Americans how to fly combat starting back in 1916...
Enough of the bragging..
Visit the center in Manitoba,,
'Quite the place.

[motto]

Another person who used FWD HAR 1s in service that most of us who go to Corowa will remember is Vic Phillips of Conargo.

I seem to remember him saying that they had big problems with failure of the diff centres. Despite the massive axle housing the crown wheel and pinion were just not up to the job and most of their trucks were immobilised due to lack of replacement parts when they were on the PNG north coast.

The Americans came to their aid and supplied them with 1-1/2 ton Chev 4x4s known in Australia as Yankee Joes. These worked very well and when it came time to move on they tried to take them with them. At this point the authorities stepped in and they ended up using the Chevs to push the unserviceable FWDs onto the barges and then abandoned the Chevs on the beach. The FWDs were on strength and the Chevs were not.

That was the story as I remember it anyway.

David

[Col Tigwell]

And then there are the USA trucks purchased by the RAAF second hand in the states to carry the mobile radar set up for 114 MRCU.

The trucks with the radar units ended up at Butterworth.

They were all repainted a dark green colour and the paint job was really great if the paint on my car was that good I would be happy.

Cannot recall what series they were but I remember my old SGT being sent to the USA to pick out the ones we would take and to buy parts to back them up.

They were perhaps disposed there as they were LHD there would have not been much market for them in 1969.

If I recall they were 6 x 6 but cannot recall the type.

Anyone know what they were

Regards

Col

[Mike Cecil]

Alex,

I think I was pretty specific about it being the truck's designation, rather than the manufacturer's model number. Call it what you like - designation, nomenclature, whatever - the point is the 'Truck, Heavy, Tipper' (the use of which was defined as a 'bulk load carrying vehicle with the ability to self-unload') built on an FWD HAR-1 was, as far as I know, unique to the RAAF. That was the point of the comments I made about the image posted.

Keep the beer cold: planning to make it that far east in 2014.

Mike C

[Greg Beeston]

Gumtree Ad# 1008968519
I'm afraid I could not supply the pictures

[Private_collector]

Maybe some of these seen before.

[Private_collector]

niet precies achtergrond, maar ik denk dat ze zijn goede foto 's.

[chalky]

Ok may not quite be background but I suppose the T16 carrier is foreground, interesting because its in Argentina and its 1963 !
Is this a standard FAT body ?
Film still from-
http://www.imcdb.org/movie_56900-Can...pto-del-7.html

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by chalky

Ok may not quite be background but I suppose the T16 carrier is foreground, interesting because its in Argentina and its 1963 !
Is this a standard FAT body ?
Film still from-
http://www.imcdb.org/movie_56900-Can...pto-del-7.html

Yes it is a standard late war FAT, similar to the late Morris Commercial FATs with canvas roof.