RCDs & M3 75mm GMC?

[Roger Lucy]

They were used by the RCDs in Italy in lieu of the CS support version of the Stag, for details see Service Publication's The Staghound in Canadian service.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Dave

From the RCD Centennial History book 1983 by Brereton Greenhous, they are mentioned as arriving on 2 Jan 1944 while the Regt was at Altamura Italy, gearing up to go into the theatre of ops for the first time. 8 in total.

However they are described as a White Autocar product "cobbled together" by the US as a Tank Destroyer "version of the M3" in 1941. Basically armoured White trucks with a half-track arrangement and were in fact former US Army property in Tunisia. Said to be armed with French 75mm guns.

According to the History, they were given to the Regt by the British who got them from the Amercicans when their full-tracked TDs appeared. The RCD had no doctrine for them so organized them as Heavy Troops (2 cars per Troop and one Troop to each Sqn). They would do pinpoint shoots in Italy at night and were somewhat renowned for what they could achieve as Black Hats. Mind you their Officer was former Artillery too, Lt LM Sebert
There are photos in the book of A Sqn in Italy Spring 44 and in Holland May 45. I haven't seen the one you reference in your first post yet. Is there a link to see it? I have a disc around here somewhere with a good part of the RCD photo Archive on it. I should look for that too!!

Hope that helps.

And please, stop saying RCDs, it hurts my ears!! RCD is infinately preferable.

regards
Darrell

[45jim]

Darrell,

A second rate Regiment deserves second rate grammar...

Perseverance!

[Edwin Wand]

45Jim's anonomous comment is uncalled for, untrue and not worthy of being posted on this website.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Ed

It's OK. What may seem a rude and obnoxious comment is not that rude at all.

45jim, based on his Percy Verance sign-off shows himself likely to be a Strathcona..............and when it comes to second, they know all about that spot.

How's that go again? LdSH; Little dumb..........Heads!! Probably just that Jim R. fellow anyway ...............

regards
Darrell

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hello all;

This may answer some of Dave's questions regarding M3 Halftrack 75mm use. It is rather long and deals with the use of the M3 Halftrack 75mm within 21 Army Group (Second British and First Canadian Armies) in North-West Europe, from 30 June 1944 to 30 June 1945:

Part I:
Source: The National Archives (Kew, Surrey, England) file references: WO165/135 - Half Yearly Report on the Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps - Report No. 9 - Covering the period from 1 January to 30 June 1944 - Appendix "F” - Statement of 21 Army Group Reserve Entitlement and Holdings

a) Statement of 21 Army Group Reserve Entitlement and Holdings:

- as of 30 June 1944 21 Army Group M3 Halftrack 75mm entitlement was 16x M3 Halftrack 75mm
- as of 30 June 1944 2 Armoured Replacement Group (21 Army Group) M3 Halftrack 75mm reserve entitlement was 16x M3 Halftrack 75mm (a 100% Reserve)

b) 21 Army Group M3 Halftrack 75mm Unit holdings as of 30 June 1944 were:

- 11 Hussars held 8
- 1 Royal Dragoons held 8

c) 21 Army Group M3 Halftrack 75mm Reserve holdings as of 30 June 1944 were:

- 2 Armoured Replacement Group (21 Army Group) held 4

for a total holding of 20x M3 Halftrack 75mm by 21 Army Group.

Part II:
Source: The National Archives (Kew, Surrey, England) file references: WO205/638 - AFV - RA Equipment States - 2 Armoured Replacement Group (21 Army Group) - Part I - August to October 1944

a) Reserves held by the Delivery Squadrons of 2 Armoured Replacement Group (21 Army Group):

- as at 0600hrs 2 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 2 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 4 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 4 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 5 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 5 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 6 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 6 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 7 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 7 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 8 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 8 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 10 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 10 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 11 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 11 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 12 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 12 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 13 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 13 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 14 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 14 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 17 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 17 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 19 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 19 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 257 Corps Delivery Squadron (8 British Corps)
- as at 0600hrs 19 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm (unfit) held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 20 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 20 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 21 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 21 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 22 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 22 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 23 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 23 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 24 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 24 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 25 Aug 44 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 25 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 26 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 26 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 27 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 27 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm (unfit) held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 27 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 28 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 28 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 28 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 30 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 30 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 30 Aug 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 9 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 9 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)
- as at 0600hrs 9 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 258 Corps Delivery Squadron (12 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 14 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 14 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm (unfit) held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)

- as at 0600hrs 16 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 16 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)

- as at 0600hrs 17 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment

- as at 0600hrs 19 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)

- as at 0600hrs 20 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 20 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)

- as at 0600hrs 21 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 21 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 256 Army Delivery Squadron (Second British Army)

- as at 0600hrs 23 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)

- as at 0600hrs 24 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 24 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 254 Corps Delivery Squadron (30 British Corps)

- as at 0600hrs 25 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by F Squadron, 25 Canadian Armoured Delivery Regiment (First Canadian Army)
- as at 0600hrs 25 Sep 44 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 254 Corps Delivery Squadron (30 British Corps)

b) Note, none shown as held by 2 Armoured Reinforcement Group (21 Army Group) from 26 September 1944 onwards

c) as of 30 December 1944 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 7 British Armoured Division (Source: The National Archives (Kew, Surrey, England) file reference: WO165/136 - Half Yearly Report on the Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps - Report No. 10 - Covering the period of 1 July to 31 December 1944 - Appendix “W” - Annexure 1 - 21 Army Group AFV Holdings as at 30 December 1944)

Part III:
Source: The National Archives (Kew, Surrey, England) file references: WO219/3353 - G4 Records, SHAEF, File No. 470.8 - Volume III 1945 - Tanks - 21 Army Group Weekly Returns - March to July 1945, and WO219/3350 - G4 Records, SHAEF, File No. 470.8 - Volume I 1945 - Tanks - 21 Army Group Weekly Returns - May 1944 to March 1945

a) 21 Army Group - Weekly AFV and SP Arty Return:

(21 Army Group M3 Halftrack 75mm entitlement: 16x M3 Halftrack 75mm)

- as at 1800hrs 13 Jan 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 7 British Armoured Division
- as at 1800hrs 13 Jan 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 12 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 20 Jan 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 27 Jan 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 5 Feb 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 5 Feb 45 - 4x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by Corps or Army Back Loading Point

- as at 1800hrs 10 Feb 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 10 Feb 45 - 4x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by Corps or Army Back Loading Point

- as at 1800hrs 17 Feb 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 17 Feb 45 - 4x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by Corps or Army Back Loading Point

- as at 1800hrs 24 Feb 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 24 Feb 45 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by Corps or Army Back Loading Point

- as at 1800hrs 24 Mar 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 1 Canadian Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 24 Mar 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 30 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 31 Mar 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 1 Canadian Infantry Division
- as at 1800hrs 31 Mar 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 30 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 7 Apr 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 2 Canadian Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 7 Apr 45 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 5 Canadian Armoured Division
- as at 1800hrs 7 Apr 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 30 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 14 Apr 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 2 Canadian Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 14 Apr 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 21 Apr 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 2 Canadian Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 21 Apr 45 - 3x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 26 Apr 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 2 Canadian Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 26 Apr 45 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 5 Canadian Armoured Division
- as at 1800hrs 26 Apr 45 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 5 May 45 - 8x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 2 Canadian Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 5 May 45 - 1x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 5 Canadian Armoured Division
- as at 1800hrs 5 May 45 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 12 May 45 - 9x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 5 Canadian Armoured Division
- as at 1800hrs 12 May 45 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps Troops

- as at 1800hrs 16 Jun 45 - 7x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 1 Canadian Corps Troops
- as at 1800hrs 16 Jun 45 - 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps District Troops

Part IV:
Source: The National Archives (Kew, Surrey, England) file reference: WO165/137 - Half Yearly Report on the Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps - Report No. 11 - Covering the period of 1 January to 30 June 1945 - Appendix “W” - Theatre AFV Holdings - Annexure 1 - 21 Army Group as at 30 June 1945

a) as at 30 June 1945 - a total of 13, out of an entitlement of 16 M3 Halftrack 75mm was held by 21 Army Group, distributed as follows:

- 7x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 1 Canadian Corps Troops
- 2x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 8 British Corps District Troops
- 4x M3 Halftrack 75mm held by 21 Army Group for training

Cheers

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Mark

Great that! Pt 1 seems to be only accounting for 3 weeks of holdings post- D-Day with 11H and 1RD using them. Their use may not be comparable to the RCD use in Italy at that same time. 21 AG was in the UK for the Pt I reporting period. Pt II has so much more and one can see only little change in the delivery unit holdings until Sep 44. Pt III clearly shows an increase as the Cdns from Italy come on strength in NW Europe (IE The RCD) and more movement. They were a Corps Recce Regt then dodged the bullet and became an Army asset. Not sure who it was in 5th Armd Div.

To me is the fact they may be reporting these White vehs as M3s and they weren't. I thought it possible that the original RCD vehs from Italy were replaced but there are no combat losses in the Regt's Heavy Troops that I've read. Maybe they were replaced after just wearing out and they ended up with M3s by Spring 1945. Hmmm I have absolutely no time to dig much on this but may all the same. Thanks.

I liked seeing the Cdn Armd Deliv Regt mentioned. Go Elgins!

regards
Darrell