Sid Swallow Ford Prototype? Need help!!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I know little about the specifications of the 40 or so '1940 Model' (although arguably they were '39s) Ford 15-cwt trucks...I have yet to find THE file in the National Archives that relates to them specifically. If it exists I should like to find it. What I can say is that so far as I can see the front axle was a Timken front axle quoting Sid Swallow...he also said that they used 'Chevrolet' front axles but Timken supplied Chevy and GMC.., and may be wrong, that there was no Windsor-built 101" wheelbase COE in Canada back in late 1939. I have a photo of a lineup of F15s plus one or two of the '40s...you can compare the 'production' ones with the 'pre-production' '40s.

Again from memory I can say that when the '38 GS trucks were requested to be supplied by the DND, the order was to be split more or less down the middle between Fords and Chevrolets [Contract Demand Stores 689 was issued in early November 1937 to Ford and G.M. of Canada]. In the end Ford of Canada declined to proceed with the order and so GM of Canada stepped in and supplied a second batch of Chevrolet trucks [26 Chevy; 25 Ford though originally 70 total were wanted; despite the assumption that Ford would tender for the supply of the 25 required 15-cwt. Trucks, they evidently officially declined the invitation to treat as they were not able to produce them to the price required. Another reason was that the pilot truck had been assembled in a small area, and there was probably no area to assemble them: March 1938]. In due course a further batch of GS trucks was ordered and I assume that a contract was placed in 1939 with Ford. Being lazy I have lleft the quotation from my notes in full and not edited it:

Dewar then wrote to Carr on 22 September 1938 and requested that he see the approval in principle of the recommendations in connection with the provision of machine-gun carriers and Ford G.S. Trucks. It was presumes that it would now be possible for Carr to go ahead with the Ford Company, but with regards to Canadian Vickers, it was thought that the proposed contract should be carefully reviewed in order to ascertain whether or not it would be economical to purchase separately those article for which Canadian Vickers had not got the exclusive licence for and to arrange for assembly.[1]This was then sent on by Carr for the approval of the Minister. Note that Canadian Vickers Limited had an exclusive licence to produce Vickers’ products in Canada, and that extended to the “Bren Gun Carriers”. Vickers-Armstrongs Limited were based in London, but manufactured a succession of Carden-Loyd tracked and armoured vehicles in a northern English factory, and had done so since The Great War. The company seems to have been keen to promote their armaments to the War Office, and had in the past emphasised the concerns over foreign competition in the British market and stressed the importance of foreign sales.[2] It is clear that it was perceived by the D.N.D. that series production would not be practicable by the Canadian arm, and that production elsewhere, without infringing the solus licence, would be required. It is not revealed whether Ford were being considered at this early stage, but a clue is that on 24 September 1938, Deputy Minister LaFleche wrote on both the Ford truck file H.Q. 38-72-335 and also the Carriers file, 543-V-48, to the Ford Motor Company of Canada. The Minister commented that the D.N.D. was now [at last?] considering the placing of an order with Fords for “a number” of General Service 15-cwt. Trucks. The complete specification for this vehicle was attached for their information. Minor alterations to the body were under consideration and would be forwarded. However, such alterations would not materially affect the production. The number of vehicles to be purchased was to depend largely on the cost thereof. It was therefore requested that Fords quote for 20, 40 and 60 units. Payment would be effected on a cost plus basis, but for the purpose of budgeting the funds then available, an upset price should also be given. On the assumption that progress payments would be effected during the course of the contract, it was desired to know the sum which would be encumbered month by month from the date of placing the order up to the and including 31 March 1939. As Fords were aware, a number of these trucks had been recently purchased from G.M. and for that order the Dominion Rubber Company and Fires-tone Tire & Rubber Company supplied the tyres. In order to increase the sources of supply for this sized tyre, could Fords arrange to bring into production at least one other company and possibly two, depending upon the number of vehicles finally ordered. At that time, deliveries of any of the trucks would not be required until the spring of 1939, but should an order be placed for any quantity up to 60, delivery would be required to be completed not later than 1 June 1939.[3]

Ellis requested on 12 October that Carr send copies of drawings of W.D. wheels, code HA 645 also HA 739, presumably for use in the proposed 1939 trucks.[4]This adherence to War Office specifications was to ensure interchangeability between Empire vehicles in the forthcoming conflict.

No response had been received for quotations for the trucks by 6 February 1939, even though after the 24 September letter, Ellis and Carr had had conversations in respect of the requested production of the 15-cwt. G.S. Trucks. The D.N.D. were anxious to place orders and were concerned at the lack of a response![5] The explanation for the delay was that it was in the course of preparation and Ellis even offered to visit Ottawa on 20 February in order for the D.N.D. to peruse the written rejoinder.[6]Note that Charles Burns, former Director of Contracts, was now Assistant Deputy Minister! This appointment was then postponed, however, and it is not known if there was a subsequent one or whether the requisite letter was merely mailed to Ottawa.

[1] 22 September 1938: Memorandum: Dewar to Carr, File H.Q. 38-72-335/543-V-48, ibid.

[2] April 1927-November 1931: Letters from Charles Bridge, Vickers-Armstrongs Limited, London, to Liddell Hart: Liddell Hart papers, 15/3/66, King’s College, London.

[3] 24 September 1938: Letter: LaFleche to Ford, File H.Q. 38-72-335/543-V-48, ibid.

[4] 12 October 1938: Telegram: Ellis to Carr, File H.Q. 38-72-335, ibid.

[5] 6 February 1939: Letter: LaFleche to Ford, File H.Q. 38-72-335, ibid.

[6] 13 February 1939: Ellis to Burns, File H.Q. 38-72-335, ibid.

[rob love]

David
Great information, thank you. So the term "prototype" really does not apply to these trucks, but rather trials or limited production. Re the 1940 vs 1939 dates, the commercial vehicles were always released a little early before their actual model year.....I suspect that is why the parts may have the 1940 code to them. I'll keep my eyes for a more definite date on anything. Unfortunately, the radiator, which often have very precise dates on them, does not have the usual little plate attached to it. I have my doubts if it is even the correct radiator.

Front axle is indeed a Timken, the name is cast into it. Any parts I have removed from the front axle, like bearings etc, that have part numbers, have all have the Timken name but Ford part numbers. I'll find out soon enough if the standard Ford kingpins will fit this truck.

I'll bring the camera to "work" today and get some photos. I'll quote the term "work" because it is not really work when you enjoy it this much.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I cannot dare hope that the original engine is still there....the engine # was the serial # as you know. I might just have the sheet for '39 as well as '40 detailing which month the engine was built in. Also, was it a truck unit or a Mercury unit, as per production CMPs.

These trucks were not 'prototypes' since there really was just the two: the 1937 15-cwt 4x2 one-offs. These wer5e officially referred to as 'Pilot Models' in the papers. The Ford was built in the Pilot Bay at Windsor. This is what we know:

On 25 July, Swallow sent the complete registration form for the truck, and mentioned that the truck was in the paint shop at that time. Delivery would be as soon as possible.[1] The Ford truck was registered as a “FORD”, 1937 manufactured [registered with a 1937 Ontario dealer plate, 856-M] Serial Number C-4800, Engine Number C-4800, with a “box” body, single rear wheels, 4300 lb. empty weight and 7,800 lb. Gross Load. The Manufacturer’s Model Number was “79”. The Series 78 was the 30 h.p. 221 cu. in. capacity L-head V-8, and it assumed that the engine was the 1937 Model truck engine: 1937 30 h.p. car engines/serials started at No. A-1, and the 22 h.p. series D-1. The Chevrolet truck incidentally had serial number 7151107427 Engine number T88,396 and was a Model 16-40S “CHASSIS WITH COWL”, with the “S” suffix denoting “Special” chassis.[2] The “7”indicated 1937 Model Year, and Model Number 1511, the “7427” indicating that it was the 7,426th truck built in Oshawa Plant in 1937 Model Year. This requires explanation: The whole truck was a Model 1640, which was a 1½-ton chassis, 131½-in. wheelbase, and the “1151”indicates a combination of the chassis model 1511, and the model 1540 Cowl, without a cab. This standard chassis was then shortened to suit, but although rated at 15-cwt., or ¾-ton, was based on a chassis suitable for double the weight![3] A note from a Lieutenant R. Henderson confirms my assessment: the chassis and engine were “standard 1½ to 2-ton Chevrolet” with a special War Office pattern G.S. body. The tyres were balloon type all round and were of the War Office type.[4] The Chassis Weight with water, fuel and oil including cab was: Front End: 2,475 lb.; Rear End 1535 lb.; Total 4010 lb. The Chassis Weight as before but with body was 2,500 lb.; 2,260 lb., and 4,760 lb., respectively. Left hand turning circle was 44 feet and the Right hand was 45 feet.[5]Both Ford and Chevrolet trucks were registered in Ontario, by the D.N.D. Mechanical Transport department, 268 Sparks Street, Ottawa. However, as of 5 August, the Ford truck was still in the paint shop and it was expected that it would be complete and available for delivery on 11 August.[6]

[1] 23 July 1937: Swallow to LaFleche, LaFleche to Ford, File H.Q. 38-72-335, ibid.

[2] Per File H.Q. 38-72-334, ibid.

[3] 27 July 1937: Letter: Kirkhope to Colonel E.W. MacDonald, D.N.D., File H.Q. 38-72-334 and –335, ibid.

[4] 3 August 1937: Memorandum: Henderson, for D. of S.&.T. to C.M.T.S., File H.Q. 38-72-334 and –335, ibid.

[5] 18 August 1974: Letter: Armstrong to LaFleche, File H.Q. 38-72-334 and –335, ibid.

[6] 5 August 1937: Ford Service Dept. to D.N.D., File H.Q. 38-72-335, ibid.

There then followed the Ford-Scammell and Chevrolet-Scammell FATs with 6x4 drive, then the 51 Chevroelt 1938 GS trucks, and finally the 40 [?] Ford GS trucks.

[rob love]

Unfortunately, the original engine was replaced by a late 40s/early 50s 8BA flathead with the top side distributer. We hope to change this out in the future, but for now I'll be happy to get the running gear back in shape.

I will get down to the dustbowl and look around. Who knows, maybe when the engine was changed out the old one was dropped into the compound.

[Stew Robertson]

If memory still serves me I think Gary found that truck in Drumheller Sask.
and the details from Sid, that was a proto type and was either 37 or 38 and had alum intake on it and I can't recall but I think it also had aluminum heads
If I can get these damned tapes from the seminar finished the real answers should be there!
I hope all that collection is still not sitting in the rain depot
(Just a little dig)
I am glad that someone finally got their act together and is going to do
somthing with it
Congrats on the best job in the world Rob
Stew

[rob love]

There are still a few unrestored vehicles out in the dustbowl, but anything that is complete is indoors. There are some vehicles on display in the main museum building (some on a rotational basis) and the bulk of the vehicles along with some guns and limbers, and even a light aircraft and the remnants of a glider, are all stored in another building where they are completely out of the elements.

If anyone is passing by on the trans-Canada highway near Brandon, and does not take the 10 minute drive south to view the collection, they are truly missing something. The vehicle collection is now much more accessible even on a drop in basis, but it is still best to call ahead.

BTW, the term rain depot does not apply to Shilo. Sure, we might get some rain in May and June, but by July the grass normally turns brown. Some years we see rain again in October, but no guarantees.

Today we worked on the shifting mechanism on a Lynx armoured car for a bit. There is a bit of wear and damage in the shifter, but I think the problem is solved. The biggest challenge was getting those cotter pins off the linkages in that very tight space.

[Stew Robertson]

By rain depot all I meant was the condensation off the steel roof and the dirt floor No insult intended at least most of the collection ended up inside