Intended Carrier recovery, wisdom sought

[Robin Craig]

Dear All,

I have been voluntold to recover this carrier from its current location into temporary storage on behalf of the owners.

As it is a WW2 item, of which I am not greatly familiar I would be grateful if others could comment on the pitfalls of the intended plan.

The vehicle is as pictured.

By the time I get there next week she will likely be frozen to the ground.

My plan is to:-

1. using a recovery asset see if either end will with some judicious persuasion lift from the ground.
2. if not I will split track and have it hauled onto a tilt n load truck and then cross decked to our float.
3. using a tiger torch I will release the track from the now frozen ground by applying pressure as I heat it and draw it from the ground, then load loose to the float
4. unload will be with assistance of and 8 ton excavator.

Comments?


R

[rob love]

If the engine and transmission is seized, as is common on the carriers left open to the elements, then bring the wrench and a hammer to remove the rear axle shafts before trying to remove it.

Those tracks appear well into the ground. That could spell trouble if the ground is well frozen and the track is tight. I have heard of track being broken being pulled in frozen ground. The tiger torch will be a slow process but I guess it's better than waiting until spring.

[Bob Carriere]

If the weather stays mild as forecasted the frost in the ground will not be very deep......

I would suggest..... if you can manoeuvre around the UC to try tugging at 90 degrees to the track...... front corner than rear corner....repeat on the opposite side......maybe pulling/tugging back and forth.....once loose you are home free.

The propane tiger torch will be slow and chances of the rubber wheels burning before thawing is a good possibility.

As suggested you will no doubt have to remove the rear axles to rool free.

If it was my property I would pour old engine oil on the bottom section of the tracks for ...alledgedly lubrication purposes......... but really to soak into the ground if the weather thaws enough and the oil would keep the soil from freezing again too hard..... old junk yard trick.

Bob

[charlie fitton]

if it's near here I'll givwe you a hand.

[Robin Craig]

Blimey,

I have had many private messages and emails and a few wise posts!

I know not nor do I honestly care which variety of the carrier it is, way beyond my interest. It is a burden to me that I have to deal with as part of the give and take of work and what I get afforded to me through work. It is going to screw a whole day by the time I kit up, drive down, wrestle with, load up, chain down and drive back and solo unload at home base.

When you consider I have heated shop space and heavy equipment and covered storage space for my own endeavours it really ain't that bad

We are doing the unit a favour by holding it in safe keeping until they can decide whether to scrap it or restore it.

Honestly I wont let them scrap it kids , a number of you have already expressed an interest. Charlie do you have a domestic approval chitty to be involved?

The gig is happening Wednesday 28th December at 1130 am in Cornwall if anyone wants to drop by and lend a hand. I drink a large Tims double cupped FYI

regards

R

[Bob Carriere]

If the side sloped armor is original you have an early scout model...... certainly worth saving. Hope the weather will be mild and you can move it free easily.

Remember that the back field at the abrn is always available for storage for anyone who is short of space.

Bob

[Ben]

I don't think it's a Bren certainly not a scout, just the way the universal armour has been cut, IMHO. Worth saving never the less.

Ben

[Lynn Eades]

Bob it a Universal MkII*, all cut about.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Robin - I love doing what you are about to do. A real adventure, the use of crisis management initiative, the victory and the stories around the bbq later on. Plus you are helping save another Carrier, an important part of history. Enjoy the recovery, get down and get dirty.

Bob

[Luke R]

Robin, make sure you get lots of photos of the recovery to share with the MLU team.

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by Bob Moseley

Hi Robin - I love doing what you are about to do. A real adventure, the use of crisis management initiative, the victory and the stories around the bbq later on. Plus you are helping save another Carrier, an important part of history. Enjoy the recovery, get down and get dirty.

Bob

G'day Bob,

Your description reminded me of some great photos and descriptions of two carrier recoveries posted on MLU. The first was one where someone in Australia built a raft and floated a carrier across the Murray River. The other one was in Canada where people had tried for two or three snow seasons to liberate a carrier when there was an ice road available.

Does anyone know what has happened to these carriers since they were retrieved?

Can anyone recall the links to these great stories for me so I can follow them again? It would be much appreciated.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Robin Craig]

Well, the forecast was not good as of lunchtime today so I went I to work to kit up for the retrieval.

Mostly loaded in this box (worth looking at the box for the eagle eyed ones) and some items in truck cab are the tools and kit I am taking.

4 sets of rated chains and turnbuckles for securing load
2x 4 ton web straps for recovery
4x 2 ton shackles for securement
5 ton shackle
assortment of 3500lbs ratchet straps
long and short pry bar
CVRT track pin kit
ball pein hammer, various pliers + vice grips
punches drifts and chisels
propane torch, small
grinder and spare disks and extension cord (power is nearby)
safety glasses
sledge hammer
5 ft pry bar, 2 ft pry bar
hi lift jack
blocking, assorted
chainsaw and chainsaw kit
3 changes of clothing
copious quantities of gloves
1 ton dually diesel
flatbed trailer
cell phone
corporate credit card

Forecast has the mercury dropping overnight with 15 cm of snow by lunchtime, oh joy.

R

[shaun]

Thats a good kit list, you are just missing one very important item ! The brew kit , got to have tea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robin Craig]

Shaun,

as an ex pat Brit I am well aware of the benefits and the traditions of a "brew up" in the British Military and the ubiquitous boiling vessels in military vehicles (of which we have a few, bvs and vehicles!) but I have adopted the "local" brew made by Tim Hortons, the double double coffee.

I would have to say that I think that now I have lived over half my life here in Canada that I have drunk more Tim's coffees than I have hot dinners.

Our military marches on them, just about.

To this end a mate, James, has nominated himself as coffee wallah for the day.

Its now 530am and the snow has started.

R

[Cornholio]

A coffee wallah huh? I don't know how I'm suppose to take that. LOL.

But don't worry, a double double in a double cup is on its way as requested.

I'll be bringing a camera as well to record the event. Unfortunately the snow has started flying!

[Robin Craig]

Well,

The roads were not great with the left lane of the 401 snow covered at Gananoque when I got on but by Prescott it cleared up a bit.

Arrived in Cornwall and the city streets were snow covered, it was minus 8 degrees c at this time and the wnd was blowing fairly hard.

Once at the unit the first challenge was to open the yard gate as the padlock was frozen so out with the small propane torch to thaw that out.

The officer in charge of the Armoury met me and we went to the back yard and he started an LSVW to get it out of the way.

While we were waiting for the tilt n load tow truck we used some straps and shackles and a rental forklift (awaiting pick up from a previous unit event) to gently lift the front of the carrier, resistance was futile and the vehicle lifted out of the ground bringing with it a great big lump of frozen ground under the tracks on both sides.

A few minutes later the tow truck arrived and moments after that James and his mate John arrived with a coffee for me! What fine service.

For Shaun in the UK we present a picture of the carrier in motion an myself in suitably gruby winter work wear!

R

[Robin Craig]

The tracks did move and the vehicle did roll up to a point but then stopped, I think the extra frozen mud jammed the track under the shroud which is what happened.

Anyway the pulling continued and the carrier slid up the deck and we were at a point that the deck could be lowered. At this point I was thanking the good lord for not having to get down and dirty and split track in the cold, that was something I did not want to do.

Next we lined up our trailer and the tow truck to do the cross decking operation.

R

[Robin Craig]

We had two options as to how to cross deck, we could place a pulley block in the centre of our trailer secured by a chain and pass the winch cable underneath and back to the carrier but instead elected to slide the tow truck deck over our trailer as far as it would go and cross chain the carrier to our trailer and slide the deck forward out from underneath the carrier.

We did this slide operation twice at least and got the carrier onto the trailer, notice the clods of frozen ground which we would have to address.

R

[Robin Craig]

So, being as how i'm getting older, and hopefully smarter, we suggested to the unit officer that he allow us to back our truck and trailer inside the Armoury and do the clean up and tie down in the warm, as any idiot can be uncomfortable!

This was one the better moves of the day, I do have to say.

We used the forklift and lifted each side in turn and flailed the lumps from the track and cleaned the deck of the trailer as we went. I did not want any crud flying off through someones windshield as I went down the highway.

R

[Little Jo]

Robin

I have been following the thread with great interest. It is always good to see how recoveries are made. I have been on a few recoveries of WW2 Blitz trucks lately and love the the whole thing. Thanks for posting the photos it gives us all a lesson on what we can do.

Cheers

Tony

[Robin Craig]

As I am not a Carrier expert, James kindly took all of these photos, as someone else had to work, snapped some detail pictures for those of you who are just dying to see what this vehicle is and has.


R

[Robin Craig]

I have to split them up because of the forum protocols on pictures

R

[Robin Craig]

And some more

R

[Robin Craig]

And finally, the drive home to "paradise island".

These pictures are from my phone, crude and dark but show a bit more detail.

I do have to say that I would have liked to get the carrier a bit further forward on the trailer for weight distribution between the tuck and trailer. The roads were quite icy around Brockville and I could have used a bit more on the truck to give better steering.

I have done a number of Carrier moves, usually with a runner unlike this stone. I like cross chaining with binders on each chain and that is what works for me and the load was very happy and did not slop on the track / road wheels at all.

The unload will happen after the new year, we will use a 8 ton excavator and a full size tractor to lower it to the ground over the ramps, one acting as the tug the other as the brake.

As i'm on my holidays it will just have to wait as that was one full day crucified.

Hope you all enjoyed it. My thanks once again to James Dennis for taking the pictures and supplying the coffee.

R

[Robin Craig]

I guess I should ask this here, I was wondering as I drove what kind of value would anyone say this is worth?

I know it is not for sale, as the unit will eventually do something, but I'm just curious as to what people think it's value would be if it came up on the open market in this condition.

R

[eddy8men]

fair play to you robin, drinking coffee and recovering a carrier is a good way to spend a day.
as to value i would say £7k was a fair price for it.

merry xmas and a happy new year

rick

[RichardT10829]

its worth what folk are willing to pay for it....carriers have been purchased for as little as £500 GBP. if that carrier was on UK soil you would expect to pay no less than £7000 GBP in its current untouched condition and no more than say £12000. restored i have seen carriers sell for 40.000euro but as with these things provenance and originality are everything.........John Bizzal has sold some lovely carriers (uncut) for $9000 US in the past

condition as you say is a biggie... drive line and controls are a main one.... armour etc can be re made but to get it right is both difficult and expensive... the more complete it is with original or issued kit, the more its worth

[chris vickery]

Seems to me that the going price on an uncut carrier hull here in Canada has been around 10K lately. Search the forum here and you will see that in the past year a couple have sold and or been offered near this price. I would say the one you have there Robin would be something less than that considering the extensive damage to the armour.
Guys in Europe seem willing to pay a lot higher dollar than the cheapos here.

[shaun]

Well done Robin, what a nice write up as well. Being British Army i will stick to TEA, now you have transfered to the colonies you are with in your rights to drink "Coffee". Its seems to have done the job and stopped you from freezing is some nasty weather. Good effort !!!!

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Well,

The roads were not great with the left lane of the 401 snow covered at Gananoque when I got on but by Prescott it cleared up a bit.

Arrived in Cornwall and the city streets were snow covered, it was minus 8 degrees c at this time and the wnd was blowing fairly hard.

Once at the unit the first challenge was to open the yard gate as the padlock was frozen so out with the small propane torch to thaw that out.

The officer in charge of the Armoury met me and we went to the back yard and he started an LSVW to get it out of the way.

While we were waiting for the tilt n load tow truck we used some straps and shackles and a rental forklift (awaiting pick up from a previous unit event) to gently lift the front of the carrier, resistance was futile and the vehicle lifted out of the ground bringing with it a great big lump of frozen ground under the tracks on both sides.

A few minutes later the tow truck arrived and moments after that James and his mate John arrived with a coffee for me! What fine service.

For Shaun in the UK we present a picture of the carrier in motion an myself in suitably gruby winter work wear!

R

[eddy8men]

i still say £7k is about right for a very complete carrier, the hull is easy to sort out the hard part is getting all the other bits together. as to shipping, i imported a carrier from the states last year for under £3k most of which was the cost of the 20ft container. import duty was only £200 as it's a classic vehicle but i've got enough rust to be getting on with so this ones not for me. (i reckon kevin could hide another one from his wife)

rick