105mm C1 howitzer

[rob love]

Thanks to a lucky find by a fellow MLUer in Alberta (he can ID himself if he wishes to do so), I recently came into possession of a Cdn C1 howitzer recoil mechanism. Items like these are normally sent for rebuild to the US, or demilled (cut up) however in this case the recoil mech along with it's history book was released as surplus.

I also lucked in that just days after working out the deal to trade for one of the recoil mechs (while in a tent in Afghanistan no less) another MLUer was able to pick it up in Alberta and drop it at my shop in Shilo, where it was waiting for me when I got home.

[rob love]

I got home on leave in early July, so after getting caught up on tasks like yardwork and roofing, I was able to take a roadtrip to my favorite surplus yard, where I had seen some 105 howitzer stuff. Derk Derin also showed up along with another local collector, and with a bit of digging and searching around, the bulk of the carriage was found. Many parts had sunk several inches into the ground, but with a bit of digging, we found about all we were going to find. In total, there was residue from 3 carriages.

[rob love]

The recoil mech was Otis elevator, while the carriage was made by Sorel Industries in Quebec. Both companies had done wartime artillery work, Sorel primarily with the 25 pdr, and Otis with the 40mm bofors.

One shield showed a CFR number of 34110, while the other shows 13 field battery (Portage la Prairie, which is part of 36 field regiment). I'll have to check the CFR history and see if anything still exists on this gun. Other markings found included the FMC decal, and another artillery marking with the letters "AB"

[rob love]

I return to Kandahar in a few days, so everything is being tucked away for the upcoming winter. Before any of it goes together, the easter egg hunt must begin. While the major parts were there, I will need to find all the little bits and pieces like the various brass bushings, castellated nuts, gear box covers, wheel bearings, brake shoes, seals, hub caps....Oh yeah, of course I will also still need the two things that make it a cannon: the barrel and a complete breech ring. If anyone has a line on any of the above, especially if it's located in Canada, please shoot me a line. Cut barrels or breech rings are fine, I am not trying to make a shooter.

[Robin Craig]

Very nice find there Rob.

You have quite the eye for finding kit.

Do you know Rob Nixon in the UK?

R

[rob love]

Thanks for the compliment Robin, but my eye for the exotic kit was greatly aided by others this time. Especially the retired weapons tech that came out to help. Laun knows these guns very well, and could differentiate between some old steel pin and a howitzer pin.

I don't know Rob Nixon: should I?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

I don't know Rob Nixon: should I?

He's an artillery collector and goes under the name rnixartillery on this forum.

H.

[derk derin]

It's always interesting to hang around with Rob.You never know what adventures await.I can usually spot CMP or Jeep parts but this time,most of the parts were a mystery to me but had fun helping pull them out of the grass.Looking forward to seeing it done!
Derk.

[maple_leaf_eh]

I haven't seen those in service for twenty years. My guess is that gun was one that was PCC'd in the good old days when the excuse was, 'don't worry there's another one in the line up and that is why we bought so many'.

[Robin Craig]

Mr Love,

my first name is "Robin".

Rob Nixon is a clepto-maniac on things that go boom in the UK otherwise known as a collector.

Try joining HMVF and searching him, he has some nice kit and some spares

R

[rob love]

Robin
My apologies, that's what happens when one goes on the computer at 5am before the coffee has fully kicked in.

Got back out to the surplus yard today and found one or two more pieces that I was missing. I am pretty sure that with enough time, anything military can be found at that yard.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

I haven't seen those in service for twenty years. My guess is that gun was one that was PCC'd in the good old days when the excuse was, 'don't worry there's another one in the line up and that is why we bought so many'.

We still have a couple of C1s in operation here at Shilo. They are used for avalanche control in the winter in BC. Otherwise, the majority have been converted to C3 for the reserves, while a small number of around 3 dozen surplus guns were listed as for sale by Lancaster Aviation.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by derk derin

It's always interesting to hang around with Rob.You never know what adventures await.I can usually spot CMP or Jeep parts but this time,most of the parts were a mystery to me but had fun helping pull them out of the grass.Looking forward to seeing it done!
Derk.

Mark my words Derk, you will regret not having bought one of these. Soon they will all be gone.

Over the years Derk and I have propelled each other on to buy stranger and stranger things. I must say I am amazed at some of his willpower these days.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

I must say I am amazed at some of his willpower these days.

Sounds like a Chick is clouding his judgement

[Doug Lavoie]

Rob,
It was great to be able to play a small part in this great project of yours. I know that you will find the missing pieces of the puzzle. You do know when not to say wow in a mud hole! Good luck on the completion of it. Show us a few pictures of the rebuild from time to time.
Good luck with it, and stay healthy and safe over there.
Doug

[rob love]

Doug
Yours was no small part. I had known about some of the pieces of the 105s sitting in the scrapyard for about a decade or more. It wasn't until you found those recoil mechs that I got motivated enough to go digging deeper. I was pleasantly surprised by how much I did find.

As an example of my obsessive collecting, after I had unloaded the trailer and truck of the new found goodies, I went to clean out the back seat of the truck. In there I found a brand new u-joint for the elevation shaft which had been hiding under the back seat for about a year now.

[John McGillivray]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

I haven't seen those in service for twenty years. My guess is that gun was one that was PCC'd in the good old days when the excuse was, 'don't worry there's another one in the line up and that is why we bought so many'.

I was in Ottawa on July 1st. It looks like the Bytown Gunners are still using four C1s to fire the Royal Salute on the hill.

[rob love]

I suspect Terry may have been talking about the mobile command decals.

I was reading a story in the Shilo stag the other day that cited a failure of a C3 in Gagetwon (along with the grounding of the C1 guns) as the reason they took LG1s to Avcon this year. Another fellow just related a story to me about a C3 failure in Saskatchewan that resulted in them losing the gun with no replacement.

Perhaps after only 55 years of service the C1, C2 and C3 castings are starting to get tired.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by rob love

I suspect Terry may have been talking about the mobile command decals.

I was reading a story in the Shilo stag the other day that cited a failure of a C3 in Gagetwon (along with the grounding of the C1 guns) as the reason they took LG1s to Avcon this year. Another fellow just related a story to me about a C3 failure in Saskatchewan that resulted in them losing the gun with no replacement.

Perhaps after only 55 years of service the C1, C2 and C3 castings are starting to get tired.

Yes it was the decal that got my eye.

I saw a cell phone snap shot of one of those broken 105s. Very spectacular to see the cradle (?) sled (?) that everything slides along, broken in two hanging awkwardly. A fellow on course with me had a subordinate send it to him; it was his gun!

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by rob love

The recoil mech was Otis elevator, while the carriage was made by Sorel Industries in Quebec. Both companies had done wartime artillery work, Sorel primarily with the 25 pdr, and Otis with the 40mm bofors.

One shield showed a CFR number of 34110, while the other shows 13 field battery (Portage la Prairie, which is part of 36 field regiment). I'll have to check the CFR history and see if anything still exists on this gun. Other markings found included the FMC decal, and another artillery marking with the letters "AB"

Rob,

While I don't know anything about artillery pieces I can identify all of the tactical markings that you have mentioned.

The '13' on the red-over-blue artillery arm-of-service tactical flash is not for the 13th Field Battery. The number '13' was the number allocated for the senior Field Regiment of an Infantry Division. As all of the brigades in the Canadian Army were non-divisional independent brigade groups, every Field Regiment used the tactical number '13.'

The Mobile Command decal came into use after April 1, 1966, when Mobile Command took control of all the Army field forces in Canada after the demise of the old geographical commands.

The 'AB' refers to which Troop in the Regiment the gun belonged to. The letter 'A' refers to the senior Troop in the senior Battery. The letter 'B' refers to it being the second gun of the Troop. Example, the senior Troop had guns sequentially lettered from 'AA' to 'AD' while the second Troop had their guns lettered 'BA' to 'BD.' The junior Troop of the junior Battery would have had their guns lettered 'FA' to FD.'

As to Sorel Industries, I know that they built all of the 155mm howitzers used by the post-war Canadian artillery and I'm pretty certain they produced all of the 105mm howitzers as well.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Dan.

[rob love]

Dan
Great information. So the gun could have belonged to A battery 1 RCHA, prior to them going over to the M109.

Hopefully a check on the CFR history may lead to more information.

I believe Sorel may have built all the Cdn built 105s, but the Cdn 105 fleet was a mix of Cdn and some American built guns. I have seen a few carriages made by pullman, and recall an article on the C1/C3 project which mentioned US made guns.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

Dan
Great information. So the gun could have belonged to A battery 1 RCHA, prior to them going over to the M109.

Hopefully a check on the CFR history may lead to more information.

I believe Sorel may have built all the Cdn built 105s, but the Cdn 105 fleet was a mix of Cdn and some American built guns. I have seen a few carriages made by pullman, and recall an article on the C1/C3 project which mentioned US made guns.

Rob, do you need a CFR check on the EDR Viewer?

[rob love]

Scotty
Yes please. I only get the basic info off the one in KAF. For some reasin it does not let me go into depth.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

Scotty
Yes please. I only get the basic info off the one in KAF. For some reasin it does not let me go into depth.

CFR List

As of 25-JUL-11

Formation : -

Unit : -

Disposal Status : ALL

Year Number HUIC Holding Unit ERN ERN Description
1950 34002* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34003* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34005* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34006* 3536* ASU Toronto 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34007* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34008* 3536* ASU Toronto 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34010* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34015* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34017* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34018* 1760* RCA School 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34019* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34020* 0105* CFB/ASU Gagetown 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34023* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34028* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34033* 1760* RCA School 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34034* 6428* CFB/ASU Wainwright 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34035* 0002* CFSU (Ottawa) 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34036* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34037* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34038* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34040* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34041* 0105* CFB/ASU Gagetown 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34042* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34043* 0139* CFS St John's 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34044* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34046* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34050* 3536* ASU Toronto 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34051* 0139* CFS St John's 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34057* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34059* 0105* CFB/ASU Gagetown 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34062* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34064* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34103* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34106* 1735* 5 RALC 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34108* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34114* 0113* CFB Borden 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34115* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34118* 0118* CFB/ASU Shilo 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34121* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34122* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34123* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34125* 0105* CFB/ASU Gagetown 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34128* 1760* RCA School 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34134* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34136* 1763* 1 RCHA 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34137* 1763* 1 RCHA 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34143* 1760* RCA School 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34144* 0002* CFSU (Ottawa) 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34148* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34149* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34154* 1760* RCA School 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34155* 0118* CFB/ASU Shilo 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34159* 1760* RCA School 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34162* 1760* RCA School 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34164* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34165* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34166* 2683* METC 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34170* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34176* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34178* 1760* RCA School 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34180* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34192* 0106* CFB/ASU Valcartier 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34205* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34217* 1852* 2 R22ER 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34218* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34225* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34227* 1760* RCA School 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34228* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34232* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34237* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34240* 0107* CFB/ASU Petawawa 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34243* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34246* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34249* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34266* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34269* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34279* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34280* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34285* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34291* 1985* 202 Wksp 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34292* 1763* 1 RCHA 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34294* 0118* CFB/ASU Shilo 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34297* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34299* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34302* 0002* CFSU (Ottawa) 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34305* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34308* 0100* CFB Halifax 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34312* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34314* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34316* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34320* 1941* 25 CFSD 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 34327* 0002* CFSU (Ottawa) 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 95602* 2683* METC 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 95603* 0113* CFB Borden 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 95604* 2683* METC 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED
1950 95605* 1445* DRDC Suffield 71200000* 1950 DND 105MMC1 HOWITZER EQPT LT TOWED


Rob, is this the right list? Your CFR is not listed.

[rob love]

Right list. I suspect mine was PCC'd in the late 60s/early 70s so may not be on the data base. Thanks for checking though.
Mine will be a mix mash of the 3 guns that were in the scrap yard. In the end, the CFR from the shield may not be relevant to the carriage number anyway. I'll have to check with a friend in higher office and see if any historic data exists on the guns.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

Right list. I suspect mine was PCC'd in the late 60s/early 70s so may not be on the data base. Thanks for checking though.
Mine will be a mix mash of the 3 guns that were in the scrap yard. In the end, the CFR from the shield may not be relevant to the carriage number anyway. I'll have to check with a friend in higher office and see if any historic data exists on the guns.

Well if you need me to "drill down" any of those above, or try and match a serial number to a CFR, shoot me a PM.

[rob love]

Did they use the carriage number or the breech ring serial as the serial number for the guns?
Interesting to note that all the 105s are listed as 1950. The data plate shown in the photos above for a low numbered Cdn carriage shows a date of 1955 and a recoil mech date of 1957.

I am back in KAF now, and look longingly at the photos in this thread. Not so much for the gun (there are plenty of that kind of stuff out here) but more for the green green grass of home (as the song goes).

[Scott Bentley]

I'm on the road right now but, when I get back to work, I'll pull off a complete screen on the closest one to yours.

Scotty

[rob love]

I checked the EDR viewer today and both the C1 and the C3 guns use the carriage number as the serial number. My CFR number (34110) is now being used by a 1999 forklift.

Interesting to read some of the VMO messages for guns that have been given away as monuments. The one I was reading showed the gun as being given away to a US museum.

[rob love]

Well, even over here I have been able to watch ebay and acquire a few small pieces for my howitzer. I got the panaramic sight, and a few other small bits. Now if I just had the sight mount to put it in. At this rate, I should have the gun completed in about 50 years.

Anyway, I got some info from higher authority re the Cdn 105s. We bought 36 m2a1s the US to tide us over until the approx 300 C1s were built by Sorel. The US guns were known as the C2. They later went through Sorel for standardisation and eventually became became C1s. The last of the C2s were relegated to ceremonial use in the 70s.

And of course, we know that the C3 was the upgraded C1 with the longer barrel and the muzzle brake.

Still looking for a breech ring and barrel if anyone knows of anything out there. I'll throw in a full wood Longbranch 303 rifle as a finders fee if any tip leads to a purchase. Even cut up parts are fine.