Rootes Wartime Orders & Deliveries

[Bill Kreiner]

In case anyone is interested, I uploaded my Rootes document to a file-sharing site, so it's available for all to see. The data comes from Rootes Group War History, Volume 2. It specifically covers orders and deliveries from December 1942 through November 1944, though there are totals that go back to 1939. Volume 1 (1939 through November 1942) is no longer extant, and it's not known if there ever was a Volume 3 (covering December 1944 onwards).

Rootes Wartime Orders & Deliveries

[gary_bath_jr]

Hey Bill

I got an error trying to go to the site, it says access is denied since I am not logged in or do not have your permission.

Gary

[Bill Kreiner]

Gary:

Thanks for telling me -- I'll find a better place to host it. Some of these sites seem to require logging in, or at the very least, take you to their website to download. I want to find one from which I can hotlink painlessly.

Bill

[Bill Kreiner]

Gary -- try it now; I changed the permissions. Hopefully that was all it was.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The papers sent to me by the Coventry Transport Museum mention:

Rootes also had a sub-contractual agreement with General Motors Limited, and official information shows that Thrupp & Maberly Limited, Acton, the coachbuilders, received for instance an order for 250 General Service Truck bodies for Ford and Chevrolet chassis in 1943, 33 of which were completed by 27 November 1943, along with 61 A.E.C. cabs and 43 Humber l.w.b. limousines. Between 1 December 1943 and 29 February 1944, an order for a further 100 G.S. truck bodies was received.112 G.S. truck bodies were produced in this period. The period to 27 May 1944 saw a further 150 bodies being produced, and then the order was expected to be reduced by 100, but then by 31 August 1944 the final order for 200 bodies was cancelled.

However, I can't find the reference at the moment!

[Bill Kreiner]

Thanks, David -- that's very interesting. I'd be interested to see the Thrupp and Maberly records, esp. with regard to Humbers, even though there is data in my document. I couldn't research those when I was at CTM, because the place was being renovated at that time (2008) and everything was in disarray. The good thing that came out of that was the fact that the War History (from which I culled the data in the document) was found, after having been misplaced for so long.

One thing I find curious is that the Humber Snipe saloon and tourer for the military/government seem to not have been produced during the 12/1942-11/1944 period. All the orders had been delivered by then. Only one chassis appears to have been built, in 1944. In summer 1944, an order was placed for 550 staff saloons, and in autumn, 50 tourers were ordered. None appear to have been delivered by the time the period the document covers ended (November 1944). My assumption is that production and deliveries must have commenced by December, because serial-number ranges (according to Tony Freeman's book) show Snipes with 1944 year codes. Incidentally, the 350 tourers shown as delivered in the last 1944 period must be a blunder (on the part of the data compiler, not my part, as I copied everything verbatim), since only 300 had been shown as delivered prior to that, and the additional 50 ordered were still shown as balance orders for that period. They also forgot to put the 50 in the "ordered in period" column.

As for other Rootes passenger cars, the Humber Pullman and Hillman Minx saloon for the government/military were in production throughout the entire period, which means they were produced throughout the war. Even the civilian Minx saloon was being delivered as late as 1943, and I've read elsewhere that the military version was occasionally delivered to essential civilian users as late as 1944. I presume the military Minx saloon differed from the civilian one in finish and perhaps headlight diameter. Some of the wartime Pullmans (but not all) were fitted with a wire-mesh grille, but headlights still seem to be the same diameter on these. There does not appear to be any distinction made in the Humber portion of that register between civilian and military/government Pullmans, though in the Thrupp section there are listed for some of the earlier periods a "FWD Pullman" (whatever THAT is!) and a "Civil and Export Pullman."

Oh, and a single, solitary Sunbeam-Talbot 4-Litre was delivered in the period (in late-1942 or early-1943), to Jamsaheb of Nawanager (!).

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Sunbeam-Talbot's Barlby Road, Acton, plant was used to build Karrier Bantams for the Ministry of Supply.

I assume that the museum have the Thrupp & Maberley records? If not are they at the new Rootes Archive Centre?

[Bill Kreiner]

David:

I believe the CTM does have the Thrupp records, but the place was in such a mess when I was there that they couldn't be found. I had checked with the Rootes Archive Centre first, and they directed me to CTM for all my queries.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

When I can get to my parents' garage I'll look up the Xeroxes of wartime records that the CTM sent me. I was more interested at the time in the emergency use by GM Ltd of Barlby Road to assemble CMPs in late 1940/ear;y 1931 and the apparnt sub-contract with Rootes agreed with GM Ltd in May 1941. This as we know probably related to truck bodies.

[Bill Kreiner]

Thanks, David - it would be good to see what you have.

I'm trying to get CTM to send me data from the 1930s-1940s Humber and Sunbeam-Talbot chassis registers they have. Some of the production data, of course, is in my Rootes document, but it would be good to have more. Since Lizzie Hazlehurst is out on maternity leave, though, the staff is not sure when they'll have the time to do this for me. I can't visit England right now to do it myself.

[bill m]

Hello Bill,
is there any material existing on the Rootes group rebuilding US equipment postwar for military assistance programs?
cheers
Bill.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by bill m

Hello Bill,
is there any material existing on the Rootes group rebuilding US equipment postwar for military assistance programs?
cheers
Bill.

Hi Bill,

I once came across some WW2 Jeeps that had been sold off from Norwegian Army and they had rebuild plates from Rootes in Manchester. If that is of any help.

[Bill Kreiner]

Originally Posted by bill m

Hello Bill,
is there any material existing on the Rootes group rebuilding US equipment postwar for military assistance programs?
cheers
Bill.

Hi, Bill:

I don't know of anything offhand, but will enquire next time I have contact with CTM, which will be when Ms. Hazlehurst returns from maternity leave. With them it's hit or miss. For example, they have Volume 2 of the War History ledger, but not Volume 1. They hold the chassis records for Sunbeam-Talbot and Humber from 1937 to 1948 (which I want copies of), but not for the later or earlier models, and have nothing at all for Hillman other than what's in Vol. 2 of the War History.

[bill m]

Thank you gentlemen,
Richard, yes I remember this being discussed a few years ago and that as the reason I am asking.
I have had a previous interest in the Rootes group and am curious as to the group's activities with wartime and postwar contracts.
cheers
Bill.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by bill m

Thank you gentlemen,
Richard, yes I remember this being discussed a few years ago and that as the reason I am asking.
I have had a previous interest in the Rootes group and am curious as to the group's activities with wartime and postwar contracts.
cheers
Bill.

Hi Bill,
I have information on wartime contracts, but nothing post 1945.

Incidentally, welcome to the forum, I was down your way in March, at Pt. Lonsdale, a lovely area.

regards, Richard