70s-80s 3 Color Camouflage Discussion

[Matthew Reid]

Hi Steve

According to the colour chips I have FS34079 is much to gray for 503-319.
The best match seems to be the 383 green (FS34094)

It seems that 304-322 was used on the Iltis's original from factory paint as the lighter green.

Other than that use it is anybody's guess where else it was used. But it likely would have been part of the camo scheme to better match units with faded paint that needed touch up's or was just wholly substituted for 503-319 as seems to be the case on some vehicles with fresher paint jobs as they are way to light to have been painted with 503-319.


503-322 is not a sea foam but a true green the posted pictures can be deceiving and it looks a little more blue in the pictures than it actually is. There are 11 different Sea Foam greens listed in the 1-GP -12C colour specs so sorting out a specific Sea Foam would be pretty hard unless you had the colour chips in hand to match it and most all of them had Gloss Semi Gloss and Flat finishes.

For the TOW MUTT the colours would be 503-319 as the green 503-321 as the olive and 503-310 for the black. That would be a factory fresh paint job.


After the first paint it could be any body's guess. As I'm sure all supplied paint for repaints did not exactly match the 1-GP-12C colour chips , as was noted before who knows how long the paint sat for and was stored
Even today there are colour variations in different batches of paint from the same manufacture. Plus paint was supplied to the CF by god knows how many different suppliers at the time across the country. So variations in the colours are almost a given.

So really their is a lot of latitude when matching colours.


Matthew

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by matthewq4b

Even today there are colour variations in different batches of paint from the same manufacture. Plus paint was supplied to the CF by god knows how many different suppliers at the time across the country. So variations in the colours are almost a given.

So really their is a lot of latitude when matching colours.

Matthew

Like this:

All are 383 CARC Green.....


Oh ya, BTW, after talking to the Unit Painter here, for those of you who find white paint under your 383 CARC, it may actually be the Primer Wash that ships with the CARC and not a UN Paint Job.

[Matthew Reid]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Like this:

All are 383 CARC Green.....


Oh ya, BTW, after talking to the Unit Painter here, for those of you who find white paint under your 383 CARC, it may actually be the Primer Wash that ships with the CARC and not a UN Paint Job.

That is a good example of much the 383 CARC fades. On my M1010 the paint is the same colour as the LSVW on the far left.
The colour very closely matches (a little lighter) than 503-222 Green. Initially I thought it had been painted 503-322, until I noticed the colour of the paint where the Front License plate used to be, the paint there was not really faded that bad and is pretty damn close to 383 /502-319.



The bumper on my M1010 demonstrates really well how badly 383 fades.

Most of the vehicles that end up in our possession are many many years past their last paint job and the paint is badly faded.

So This gives a person a lot of latitude when painting as you could paint it to represent all kinds of time frames after the last paint. I still suspect the 530-322 was used to touch up faded 383/503-319. As it comes very close to faded 383/503-319. And their is no question it was used as the light green on the Iltis from the factory. Lord knows why this was done. But that is a question we likly will never be able to answer.


Matthew

[spinnerhawken]

Thanks for the reply Matt,

After the restoration on the TOW the only two colours on it were the 319 and the black. There was no 3-colour cam with the 321 on it as people describe. I know all the colours blended together and everything, but really I looked for it and there were only the two colours. Except for the big red spray painted X accross the hood that I also unearthed and some weird hand painted symbol on the driver side read quarter. Unfortunately, as I look to repaint in the next month, the Gillespie 34094 (383 CARC) available from Army Jeep Parts is way, way, way too leafy green and doesn't match the colour chips at all. In fact, it almost looks plastic. The search goes on.... so anyone with ideas for the best 319 paint and colour and supplier please chime in.

While we're at it, anyone want to talk about the colour white?... just kidding.

Here is a pic of my TOW prior to restoration.

[Matthew Reid]

Hi Steve

I'll second that one, the Gillespie 383 carc is so far off the actual FS colour not sure how they can even call it 383 Green.

You could just opt for real CARC That is what I did, I gave up the search for a good 383 Green CARC alternative. And just opted to buy the real thing.

Yes IRR CARC is a controlled substance and you can not buy it in Canada without controlled goods certification.

BUT..............you can buy in the states and have it shipped here no problem. Go figure that one.

I bought my 383 CARC from AeroCoat in the U.S.
(www.aerocoat.com/Copy_of_Home.html )
I ordered the water born 383 CARC and it has a high enough Flash point that it did not have to be shipped as a hazardous material so it could go by air etc keeping shipping costs low.

The guys at AeroCoat were helpful and accommodating. I think the CARC paint they supply is Hentzen paint.

They are also selling mil paint that has past it's self life though a new company. ( www.aerocoat.biz/ ) at huge discounts


You could also try Hentzen Coatings directly.
( www.hentzen.com)

I do not remember the cost for 4 gallons and was not overly expensive I think it was about $90 a gallon and this was not the price reduced stuff. It was not cheap but it was far far cheaper than the paint I had mixed up at Tempo to match the 1-12GP-C specs. Right now AeroCoat have 383 Brown CARC on for sale for $50 a Gallon.


So there are couple suggestions.




Matthew

[rob love]

Originally Posted by spinnerhawken

Thanks for the reply Matt,

After the restoration on the TOW the only two colours on it were the 319 and the black. There was no 3-colour cam with the 321 on it as people describe. I know all the colours blended together and everything, but really I looked for it and there were only the two colours. Except for the big red spray painted X accross the hood that I also unearthed.......

There was a message sent to all the base supply major equipment sections that the M151A2s were to have the red X sprayed over the hood to show that the vehicle was not to be sold other than as salvage. All my 30 Mutts from Shilo had it, and the 15 or 23 from Winnipeg (it's too many years now, I am starting to forget) had it as well.

If your X was painted over, is it possible that your jeep had been repainted post service?

[Eric B]

Hello Folks

As Rob and i have indicated, from the paint chips in the book and the paint codes, both the greens used in the camouflage are darker than the Pea green.

As seen from my previous photo of the M151a2, these will fade to a light green. (This fading has confused the issue of pea green as those of us who did not see a new paint job only saw the light green (faded) paint on the vehicles while in service.That is all i ever saw and was told it was a pea green years later).

Here are the two cans of original paint, 503-321 green and 503-121 olive drab. Both of these are dark.

Also attached is the can of camouflage (pea) green, which is the same as Steves sample earlier. I went back to the original provider and they had disposed of all their original books and files. As indicated this paint matched that of unfaded paint on my M151a2 windshield vents.

I have found somewhere on the web a photo of a deuce and a half with a water trailer. The trailer looks like it has a pea green in it similar to the camouflage green that i have in my can. I know this does not help the question, is it pea green or is it faded. (This photo is from Ed Storey's vast collection, thanks).

Regardless this is an interesting discussion.

thanks
Eric

[Eric B]

Here is another can of 503-321 Camouflage Olive Drab.
It is a darker green as you can see.

My paint chip book has not been updated since 1968, so maybe there was a camouflage green (Pea or lighter green) which did come out later and i never got the updates OR it was part of the earlier camouflage before the one we all know, was standardized.

I have seen photos of vehicles painted camouflage and they were gloss in colour, using the original gloss paint as one of the tones and the lighter green was much more noticable. Steve has a photo of a M151A2 in BC with this earlier paint, but for some reason i cannot download it to the MLU.

thanks
Eric

[spinnerhawken]

Matt,

Thanks for your help with the suppliers. Makes sense to use as much original as possible.

Rob,

It didn't look like it. It looked more like the big red x was under the 1/8 '' of rust on the hood more so than any paint. Still an interesting find.

I'll take pics of the hand painted symbol on the rear dvr side, beside the trailer receptacle, as it had me scratching my head. I wondered if it was the old SSF logo as according to the veh unit history the TOW split time between 1 RCR and 2 CDO.

[Ed Storey]

Eric:

Please credit the colour image of the M135CDN with the M106 to me, thank you,

ED

[Scott Bentley]

Steve,

I've got a copy of the Pub that those Color Charts came from, that are posted elsewhere.

It came from the CF Pub: B-0L-318-009/PT-001 "Camouflage and Concealment", Annex B. Pub is dated 1978.

The Color Code for all the attached patterns is:

Olive Drab - (1)
Black (summer) or White (winter) - (2)
Green - (3)

Sorry Eric, no Pea Green listed anywhere

It then goes on to list the appendicies for each vehicle pattern, which is where the pic of the handraulicly drawn M38 with the color patterns came from.

The other Publication is B-GL-303-008/DS-001 "MARKING OF FIELD FORCE VEHICLES AND GUNS", which covers Tac Signs, Load Classification Markings etc etc. The sad thing is this stuff is too old to be found on the documentum webpage, so really, unless some Unit Library is sitting on these, I can't find the actual complete pub.

If anyone wants a pattern for one of the other vehicles, just let me know.