New Hampshire CMP Barn 2011- 2012 HUP Overhaul

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil
Snow day here for me.... getting too old to put up with the snowy commute...

About 8 sticky inches right now turning to heavy rain.... not sure if I should get the snow blower ready or the sump pump.

On a more serious note.....

have you had a look at Stovebolt recently.... engine shop.... goot information on Carter YF carbs.....

...which brings me to my ?????

Regular gasoline and mid range gasoline in Canada have a sticker that says it may contain up to 10% ethanol....... BUT NOT ON THE HIGH OCTANE PUMP.

Is it safe to assume that hi-octane gasoline has NO "deathanol".... and would be more appropriate for our trucks....?

Sound too simplistic.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Hi Phil
Snow day here for me.... ...
...which brings me to my ?????

Regular gasoline and mid range gasoline in Canada have a sticker that says it may contain up to 10% ethanol....... BUT NOT ON THE HIGH OCTANE PUMP.

Is it safe to assume that hi-octane gasoline has NO "deathanol".... and would be more appropriate for our trucks....?

Sound too simplistic.

Bob

My response to Bob while MLU was down. (glad it is back)

We have as you seen my comments had ethanol in our gas in the states for a number of years and they are even talking about going up to 15 % which will cause a new round of problems.



In short 10 or 15 % ethanol gas will EAT AND DISTROY ALL RUBBER FUEL LINE PARTS not designed for it. This can happen depending on the part in as little as one tank of gas. I’ve gone through and replaced all rubber fuel line parts with Gates hose rated for it. Watch out for discount or un-marked hose. Buy a known brand which is marked. Particularly watch out for the mechanical fuel pumps for get NOS fuel pumps unless you replace the diaphragm with one made of the new material. I’m going over to electric fuel pumps.

Other than that the only problem I’ve had with the truck is that the stuff goes stale in the carbs quick, but the electric fuel pump seems to solve that problem as it pushes some fresh gas in when the turn on the pump.

After responding to Bob I got another e-mail about this issue with and interesting link http://cckw.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4732.

This if the joy of E10 and E15 is spreading to Canada this topic deserves its own heading not sure what category it should go under. Suggestions?

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

When we last left our story the poor BEAST the chassis was lounging around the barn in the nude, stripped of most of its parts. (pict) Now it axles and spring assemblies have been removed. Axle housing are all cleaned sanded and ready for paint, more on that in a moment.

With everything that can be unbolted from the chassis removed the frame is really pretty easy to handle (pict ) shows the frame hanging from its CG with the ratchet strap only keeping it from doing a titer totter act. The chain fall holding this is the same one I use for engine pulls and is rated at 500-700 lbs. I make note of the CG locations of the heavier components as it makes handling them alone much easier. Once you know where the CG is pretty easy to flip the frame over or stand it on edge to work on it. (pict)

Which is heavier on a HUP the individual axle assemblies or the engine transmission group? Answer the axle assembly by a large margin. To pick up either front or rear axle assemblies with the chain fall had to remove tires and brake drums. With out lightening them all I was doing was climbing the chain.

Once it axles can be lifted I hung them from the chain fall supporting some of the weight on sawhorse to clean and get them ready for paint. (pict)

Getting to the correct OD color is the next step I’ve been taking photos of various protected locations on the HUP during the dis-assembly places where dirt, air, and light has left it alone places such as tight fitting body parts, under mud flaps etc. These I’m trying to match up with OD paint colors and spec numbers that the local paint store can mix. (pict) this picture is rather small and may loose something in the smaller size for MLU, so I’ll post it at a higher resolution on my web site this week end.

Progress has slowed now that I’ve gotten to the real mechanical parts because I changed over to clean parts as I work instead of just disassembling everything then starting to clean. Without really cleaning stuff I can see what needs to be replaced or reworked.

Stay tuned for more of the saga of three CMPs living in the woods of New Hampshire.

Cheers Phi

[Ganmain Tony]

Gday Phil,

I know its probably been said before but I'm particularly enjoying this thread as its very informative and I'm learning a bit....so thankyou..

Fantastic colour chart youve posted. My frustration with colours for the trucks is many....if I vent a little here its not directed at you or anyone else for that matter...just searching for a solution.

If I print this colour chart and show it to blokes who mix paint, its still not going to come out exact.

If I get an original sample of paint and a paint guy matches it........its still not going to come out exact.

You and I order the same colour, from the same paint manufacturer, made the same way, the same type (two pack, enamel, whatever) in two seperate batches.......its still not exact.

Solutions??? Or is that just how it is and its like the changing of the tides....have to leave it be.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Tony

You are getting right to the heart of the problem of matching color. Olive Drab seems particularly problematic. Years ago I did a lot of research on paint mixes going from the original CMP paint pigment percentage that Peter Ford had come up with. I took the Dupont paint mixing percentages for their colors and matched them to the percentages listed until I found a match.

The Light Stone came out to be a good match to the with the chip in the chart. With that Dupont paint number I've had the paint mixed a number of times over the year and it comes out as a very near match every time. Both of my big CMPs are painted with this mix. I can even touch up paint 5 years later and it matches.

The Olive Drab Shade No. 15, also known as No. 4 Dark Green on the British chart which one of our MLU members posted years ago, has always been problematic, it has never come out the same and I've had it mixed several times. Because of the cost even if it isn't correct or a good match I've end up using it.

So once again I'm trying to find a mix that looks correct and is repeatable, I think that the Mil Spec paint mix number is going to be the best hope of a repeatable paint mix. So I'm going to have pint cans mixed of the closest matches and will use them to paint parts of the vehicle that you will only see if I run over you. Once I find what looks to be a match for the hidden paint I've found I'll go with that.

I found the Peter Ford paint info and have included it below. One of the big problems with getting a match on the OD is that the flattening compound used to get the flat finish, while clear in the can is actually white when dried so it is actually adding to the white pigment levels. The other problem in this is that there is a tint missing #116. So if anybody has what the missing tint is let us know.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Started really testing the engine out the HUP to see what needs to be rebuilt. Known problems:

1. Oil leaks, front and rear main seals, valve cover, side cover
2. Beginning of a little exhaust smoke
3. Exhaust manifold leaks - big time
4. Replace all rubber parts just from age
5. Engine has never had detergent oil
6. Non hardened valves or seats

Other work suspected as this engine

1. Put the original carb back on it - swap the orginal carb for one the C60S as the bigger carb needed the better carb when it had the 216
2. Lower than desired compression more on this below
3. Valve wear, from the 216 in the C60S which spent its entire life at full throttle or idle, valve wear or valve recession is a real problem compounded by the hotter burning gas now.

This engine has never been out of the HUP or apart, this is my from my direct knowledge 1979-now and from talking with the previous owner 1946-1978. I've never even had the head off or dropped the oil pan. Previous owner thought the head was replaced at one point. I've never wanted to mess with success by taking the thing apart, it just runs so nice.

As this particular HUP is basically as original as is likely to be encountered I am very reluctant to replace any thing that can be rebuilt and reused. (See genuine or repro ??? That is the question ! http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=16343 interesting thread)

This includes the engine, so diagnostics before the rebuild I hope will help keep it as original as possible while stopping the oil leaks and ensuring the same level of reliability it has demonstrated over the last 66 years.

Anyway the engine is now completely set up on an engine test stand and can be run, while having full access to the engine top, sides, and bottom not something easily done in the HUP. First thing was bring the engine up to operation temperature with the oil temp fully equalized with the water at 180-185 F used an IR gun get the temps.

I discovered why it is so hard to get a CMP up to temp and equalized with out driving in on the road. It is difficult to get it up to temperature and actually equalized even with the grill completely covered. The design of the fan shroud results in a significant reverse air flow coming forward through the radiator at the top and bottom corners. This air is then sucked back through the center, radiator enclosure which provides 4-8 inches of space between the grill and radiator for this air circulation. Even with the grill area covered this counter airflow allows/causes a significant temp delta from top to bottom. A thin sheet of card stock/poster board slid directly down the front of the radiator will block the counter flow if there is space for it.

Anyway after finally getting the engine equalized at 185 shut it down and did a series of compression tests. Valve lift or cam lobe wear measurement. What I found for valve clearance, and oil pressure to time, oil temp and water temp test.

I'll post the rest of the engine measurements over on my web site because they are on a spread sheet and every time I tried to past the results here the formatting fell apart. http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Margaret my wife has been on vacation this week so have not been out in the shop. But what I have done is updated and modified my web page. Which has included adding some more videos and lot more detailed photos.

Overhaul Page One http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...AUL%202011.htm

Overhaul Page Two http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm

One of the things I've added is the first round of engine tests.

Along with lot of minor corrections.

Cheers Phil

[oztankboy]

Thats a great web site and so interesting all the info and photos on the HUP resto... well done!

Phil...

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All...But what I have done is updated and modified my web page. Which has included adding some more videos and lot more detailed photos. Cheers Phil

Phil, I note with some delight that your HUP has a distinct lean - just like my HUP. I refer to the photo of the back of the HUP near the barn door. While the slope of the driveway may have contributed to the "lean", the truck itself has a distinct "tilt" to it.

I'm beginning to think it is a HUP thing.

[Bob Carriere]

Just took the time to look from A to Z.....fantastic....... informative and very motivating......

Wonder if all the readers/viewers realize the time and effort needed to stop what you are so involved in.... take a picture...record measurements.... and move on to the next step....... and then the evening of posting, writing, editing, etc....phew......

Your site is a treasure chest of priceless information......

Thank you.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Phil in the land of Oz, Rob and Bob


Phil I been enjoying your post on the HUW always great to know another of the family has been restored. Hope you enjoy driving yours as much as I've enjoyed driving my BEAST.

Rob- You notice the lean no it really does lean toward the drivers side, about 1" difference distance frame to ground. Always has had the lean, never have been able to track the cause other than weight of the vehicle not being centered. I even tried to trim the flight level by using the fuel in the right tank first which should be get rid of 80 or so pounds.

One of the first things I checked when I got the body of was did the chassis sit level? Yes. The springs in the at rest disassembled height are almost identical.

Bob- Creating the web site just gives me a way of sharing what I've found over the years, kind of a repayment or pay it forward to all the people from all over the world who shared information about CMPs me when I was getting started. People may not realize how much work goes into a site like MLU or into my site. But when I look at the visitor statistics for my site I get a understanding of what people are getting out of my site. Couple of the statistics I look out is length of visit, number of pages visited, images visited etc. Recently had a visitor from Israel spent 8 hours and looked at virtually every page and every image.

My thanks to everyone who takes time visit the tread and hope you enjoy it. I just expanded the title of this thread curious to see if that helps people find information on HUP overhaul.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Over the last week or so I've been busy on the HUP over haul, disassembled and inspected transfer case, transmission, rear brake drums, and today started on the body.

I've clean up and added to my overhaul web pages http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm

No real problems with the transmission only real work was welding back a little material on the reverse lock out, which was surprisingly worn. One comment I will make to anybody planning to work on your transmission. Before you remove the cover put the transmission in the neutral position before you unbolt it and lift it off. Then take a good picture of the position of the shift forks and of the position of the gears. Saves time on reassembly because there is not a picture in most manuals.

Of the 4 rear wheel bearings only one needs to be replaced as the race is slightly pitted, only one roller has a mark on it. Plan to replace the race and the bearing as a set.


The pictures below though show today's project rolling the body on it's side in the bed of C60L.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Is your life insurance fully paid up...?

I know you are careful but still.... that is quite a task for one man...!!!

On the tranny..... usually takes me hours to re-assemble a tranny... and then I usually have a spare one to peek into for guidance but I usually get it right with the forks...... A while back a friend of Rob cameover to help Rob reassembled his tranny.... being a mechanic he had it reassembeld in a few hours. A few weekends later when we installed the tranny onto the bellhousing we found we could not shift gears....... had to remove the cover and realign the forks inside the two sliding shifting parts......

Taking your time has it's advantages....

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I've been looking for replacement bushings for the springs, spring shackles, and frame mounts for the HUP for a month or so, also wanted to replace the rear spring pins. Big problem I have had is everywhere I checked they had parts listed only by applications. Even searching on the web I was not finding what I needed in the form of dimensional listing. Found some but I didn't have much faith in their knowledge of what they were selling example finding one list where all the bushings had larger IDs than ODs. A couple of the really big bushing makers would make any size you wanted generally minimum of 100.

Anyway found a couple of promising old parts houses and to really see if they had the parts needed I did a small CAD drawing with photos of the parts. But before sent them out, I called the major heavy truck spring shop for the state and asked if they had size listings they responded sure so I sent them the drawing in an e-mail. They called back and said think we have everything you need so I went over this afternoon with all the bits. Guy takes me out to the parts bins 12 new brass bushings and 6 new rear spring pins total cost $92.68. Now that I have the part numbers I could actually look them up and discovered they are readily available. But the real surprise was the local heavy truck gave me shop price instead of the list. So the LHE bushings that list for $12.35 then sold them to me at $4.35.

The only not exact match was the pins which have a different pin bolt grove size. Which will be easy to work around.

So now I can start reassembling the chassis.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All... Guy takes me out to the parts bins 12 new brass bushings and 6 new rear spring pins total cost $92.68. Now that I have the part numbers I could actually look them up and discovered they are readily available. But the real surprise was the local heavy truck gave me shop price instead of the list. So the LHE bushings that list for $12.35 then sold them to me at $4.35. The only not exact match was the pins which have a different pin bolt grove size. Which will be easy to work around. So now I can start reassembling the chassis.

Cheers Phil

Hi Phil, I got my bushings and pins from Jim Carter Truck Parts - I am trying to find the invoice and the catalog. Good to hear that replacements are available locally. Keep up the very interesting work!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

Yes, I looked at Jim Carter but could not find the dimensions in their catalog to confirm the correct ones, which was one of the reasons I did the little drawing to send off to them and Obsolete Chev to see if they matched.

A point in passing, the pins that had brass/bronze bushings it was the bushings that were worn, on the rear where they used steel bushings it was the pins that got worn. As bushings are easier to find and pins are harder to find, I'm using bronze all the way around.

Cheers Phil

[Mike K]

Phil

Can I ask you: What's your opinion on the cast iron versus alloy pistons ?

I bought a set of aftermarket alloy 216 pistons years ago. I weighed them against the original cast iron set - the weight was only 25% less than the cast iron set.I was somewhat dissapointed .

MIKE

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Well with tomorrow marking the 1 year anniversary of my Overhaul of my HUP BEAST figured it was time to get back into the habit of posting work progress and interesting findings. So here goes over the last few days I have started posting progress in sections. Monthly or bimonthly not all the pages are populated with data yet but I’m working on it and will be filling in the missing pages and adding photos and narrative to all the pages.

Dec 2010 to March 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...AUL%202011.htm
Continued http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm
April 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ril%20Work.htm
May 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...May%20Work.htm
June 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...0June%20Wo.htm
July 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...uly%20Work.htm
August September 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ber%20Work.htm
October November 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...vemberWork.htm
December 2011 the engine runs again http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%209.htm


Part of the cause for the long delay was I had collected to many photos and the hard drive became overfull to the extent that I could not really sort or edit the pictures that problem has been solved with a three Terabyte hard drive.

Hope to be better about catching up and keeping current on progress. To all of you who I have promised photo details on wiring harness and cable routing I have not forgotten and will take those photos when I bring the chassis back into the main shop. The chassis is currently parked in garage bay my regular car should be parked.


April Work - Page 3 was centered around the Transmission, Spring Shackles, Cleaning and Painting of the bottom of the body, Engine Testing then disassembly.
May Work - Page 4 included finding a replacement cylinder head, finding and installing spring shackle bushings and pins. Cleaning and painting the frame,
June Work - Page 5 painting and body work begins and trying to match the original color of the HUP, brake work, reassembly of the axle assembly. July Work - Page 6 handling painting and body how do you pick up and turn a HUP body on its side by yourself. Machining the hardened steel spring shackles. Pictures of the wooden blocks used as frame inserts at the attachment locations. Brake line installation
August & September Work - Page 7 engine comes back from the machine shop almost ready for reassembly before the problems start. Body lowered on to the body for fitting and further body work, which included replacing some rusted damaged areas. Updated 12/10/11
October & November Work - Page 8 body work continues, repairing the fatigue cracks in the front door where the hinges attach, a common CMP problem, installation of chassis parts like shocks. Problems with assembly of the engine but in the end everything is fitted in place. Updated 12/10/11
December Work - Page 9 engine assembly completed and run in started on the test stand. Hidden design surprises in the CMP adaptation of the Stovebolt 6. Work on the chassis nearing completion with only a little painting and the installation of the wiring harness to be done. Body is ready to be primed and painted. Updated 12/10/11 Not all of these pages have been loaded yet