Carrier Data plates

[kevin powles]

Jordan, glad you through that question in there, I think the serial is as you have described, but upper or lower hull number?, now i am confused. hope these help from the ford manual.

[kevin powles]

Hi, Found this written by Nigel, looks like its the upper hull CB number to be put on the data plate.

I'm glad to help with input if required. I mentioned to Richie that I had started a Register of Carriers in 2003 but time prevented its advance. I have 25 carriers on record, some have changed hands since then so everything requires to be started again I think.

The important information and terminology should be that laid down at the time of production as this is how it was stamped on the armour and recorded on the plates and ledgers.
This is (according to UC-F1 Manual):
Stamped on top edge of front armour in front of driver.
L-R viewed from front
1. WD.No. Beginning with T or CT (Maybe others)
2. Horizontal Arrow pointing right if present is the Government Inspection Board of the UK and Canada approval of the assembly and stowage of the vehicle.
3. A numeral designating the month of the year the vehicle was produced.
4. The year the vehicle was produced eg 1942
5. Manufacturers Logo (I have only seen Ford script but no others!).
6. Next is the Vehicle Serial Number
7. Arrow Approval Mark signifying vehicle approved after field tests completed.

Stamped on the plate:
Model: For a MkI it is UC-1
Serial: Is the Vehicle Serial Number
Hull: Is the number stamped on the angle iron behind the commander's seat, sometimes referred to as the Upper Hull No. by us!
Engine: Engine Number assigned by manufacturer, stamped on the top of the clutch housing under the mounting bracket for the oil cooler regulator valve and the top of the cylinder block at the right edge of the valve chamber cover.
Order: This is the Order Number or Contract Number for the vehicle. Many vehicles will share this number if made under the same Contract.We also have the number stamped in the rear which we call the Lower Hull Number, this should be logged as well just in case we find a link between the two 'hull' numbers in the future.

There also needs to be some way of logging in oddities! Different numbers/letters in non-standard places on carriers, like the 47 on my edge armour!

Some other thoughts to run at the same time:
a. Original Lettering that has been found under paint.
b. A log of all wartime WD Nos and associated Carrier Types with photo ref: be it in a publication, on film, from collection, on ebay...anywhere. (mammoth job but what a great reference source!)

Geoff is there anyway you could incorporate a form that we can access from MLU and be able to send to whoever is going to collate the information? That way if the form is done accurately it would be a question of collecting/saving the forms.

If I can work out how to take a picture of a MS Publisher Document that is on my computer I will upload what I had done in 2003.

Good Christmas to you all, and keep on the tracks!

Nigel

[Jordan Baker]

Thanks Kevin

After I posted my last posting, I found those pages in the manual. Basically I now need to find a upper hull # and an engine # for my data tag.

[George McKenzie]

Read what I posted about the numbers earlier The back lower number on the hull can be your serial number or very close to it . The date is stamped in the front armor in front of the driver . like" 3-25 1942" .It is not the last number in the serial number .It can be the last number of the CT or T number eg, CT 576934 The 4 would be the month . The CB number can be your serial number also ,behind the gunner or commander . If you have the CT number it will take some other information to get the numbers to put on your plate .The lower number will only be on the plate if it is the serial number .George

[derk derin]

Kevin,
I am glad I didn't send in my information yet! I thought the hull number was the one in the left rear corner angle iron.That is obviously the lower hull number.I wondered what they were refering to when upper hull number was being mentioned! I am back outside tommorrow with a flashlight to see if I can find the upper hull number.I AM getting closer as I read this thread.Keep the information coming as I may have interpreted other data wrong!
Thanks,Derk.

[Ralph Volkert]

People need to remember something. These were never meant to be numbers matching pieces of equipment. I don't know what the exact life span of a carrier was, once it was on the front but I doubt anyone was too worried about 70years later.

Production of the tub (Lower hull was 1 assembly)
drive train would be another and
upper hull was a third

In an ideal world production would be in sync and all the pieces would come together and the numbers would match. Didnt happen! they wanted volume pure and simple.

So most of the time numbers originally are all closely related but remember...it has been 70 years later.

Some machines were repaired, restored, perhaps battlefield repaired.
Some machines are a mix of 2 or 3 machines. So if all your numbers are close great. But look at your numbers and compare with those similar to yours. If your engine number is way off it is most likely not the original. If the CT number doesnt match your expected hull number range perhaps the armour in front of the driver was damaged and was changed out in the field or replaced by someone later down the road.

early engines where 55 hp. they wouldnt hold on to it for a 1000 carriers down the line and put it in when the new engines were now 75/90 hp. But to replace a blown motor I can see someone grabbing the 1st available spare.

Just do the best with what you have and remember you own a CARRIER! Dont sweat the little stuff. Just remember to indicate the numbers that are estimates so no one thinks that your data plate is gosple!

[Ralph Volkert]

Here is a hint in reading corroded numbers.
polish slightly with 600 grit emery paper.
blow/wipe the dust away
spray with WD40 or other rust remover.
This may bring out the missing number.
You may have to repeat several times.

If that is not enough you can be more aggressive.
I caution about the next hint. Be carefull.
use above method but use an acid hydrochloric or preferably phosphoric acid
neutralize when done and use a coat of light oil to protect the finish from further rusting.

When the numbers are punched it work hardens the steel. These treatments help to make the differences visible.

[George McKenzie]

I am running into a snag with getting the plates made .I have been told in the USA and UK .Don't know about Canada yet
IT is Totaly Illegal to make " reproduction" VIN plates . Possession of blank antique style plates and especially VIN rivets is a Federal offence If the Government issues one it will be plastic No reputable company will sell one or fabricate one . I have located one company that will make a plate , if you have the original one to copy from. Or the photo of the title . Documentation of numbers . Others won't do anything older than 1952 The question now, Is this a VIN plate ? And does the rules apply to a military machines We have talked about making up numbers for the plates.They say that is illegal also . I am waiting from a few companies for some more answers . David is doing some recherch in to this also .This is the last thing I would have though of happening .The last thing we need is Gove invovment .They threw the racords away so what good is a VIN plate now other than looks George McKenzie

[RichardT10829]

you are right in some respects...... it is not illegal in the UK to reproduce a vin plate as long as the details contained on the plate are correct for the vehicle ie if it was a car the plate would have to be correct to the stamped in vin on the chassis and other hidden VIN's which most folk dont know about (and i will not discuss any further for obvious reasons)

so say you had a mini. the visible vin is located in the gutter on the scuttle infront of the drivers seat, the vin plate is mounted on the slam pannel at the front where the bonnet meets the grille this part often corrodes and the plates either get binned or lost so you can reproduce plates to match the numbers in the chassis

NOW THEN:-

same chap has the same mini but the mini is registered as a 1964 austin mini.....he wants to make some money... and the car he has although nice is not worth that much money and this guy wants to make mega bucks so he goes onto ebay and buys an old V5 document for a 1964 austin mini cooper S.....he then goes back into his garage and welds over the numbers in the scuttle pannel and removes all the glass, then places the Cooper S Reg and plates onto the chassis.....now remember the plates came from a scrapped cooper S but the documents were retained....neither car was stolen......

dispite this you have stepped over the line and you have broken the law.

this is a very popular problem in the UK especially with Mini's and old Landrovers mainly because with mini's you get the cars value to rise from 3k to circa 19k and with landrovers its a way folk avoid paying road tax.

what you are doing is slightly different as the vehicles were not registered perse....

think of it as you building a caterham 7 car and you want to register it you can put anything you like as the chassis number....even BOLLOX1234 if you wish. i know chap that had his name and date of birth for the car something like ROB12012010.

the problem may arrise for those who dont know all their details for 100% certainty and they get a plate made.....later down the line another carrier is dragged from its rusty tomb and it has its plate in situ which contains some of the details you have used.

you cannot use plates from one carrier and put it on another.. this goes back to the mini scenario.

my advise...and it may not be liked ? is those in the situation where they do not know all their details can provide to you what they do know then for the missing details you give it any number but.....either before or after you place a mark be it a pip or a line....anything that way you can say to the powers that be this number has been given based on research however not 100% the mark identifies this number as questionable or not 100%

finally the question would be raised that these vehicles were never fully registered and those that were have long since gone...when the reg has not been used or has not flagged up in the system for a period of time, the details go back into the pot (so to speak) and the reg would be re issued for example those who have registered carriers in the UK will have numbers previously used on cars / bikes etc it is rare you will get a reg number of that period that has not been used before... my pal has an old 40's period number on his brand new audi.....cherrished transfer.

with documents especially in the UK i would need to sit down with a pint and spend a few hours explaining it i have kept it as simple as i can and have still babbled on so it gives you an idea


i know a little bit about this stuff especially for a brick layer !

Also a true vin contains a hell of alot of detail in the number sequence ie, make, model, trim type, date of manufacture, factory/country of manufacture and a unique random sequence.......

losely translated i suppose our plates are a vin but it could be argued that it was for military purposes for servicing and armament issues like a reference plate

i dont think you will have any issues to be fair George as there is no propper register for these things (i dont think)