M38a1cdn

[chris vickery]

I was just wondering what series a 1970 M38A1 might be as I know there was a 1,2 and 3.

What is the average fair market value right now on a complete runner in decent shape?

[Mike Baker]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

I was just wondering what series a 1970 M38A1 might be as I know there was a 1,2 and 3.

What is the average fair market value right now on a complete runner in decent shape?

It'll be a CDN3.

Value is difficult to say without pictures, but I paid $3,500 for mine (running, but in need of new tires and brake system to be road-worthy), which had been sitting untouched in the back of a garage on Vancouver Island for 20 years.

Mike

[chris vickery]

Thanks Mike

I need another jeep like a hole in the head but found a potential deal on one, looks decent, asking $4000. Figured 3-4000 is around the current value...

[maple_leaf_eh]

I paid over $2000 for a driveway Queen that the seller absolutely had to get sold before the weekend. It has almost all its parts, but as the gentle souls here who have seen it will attest, it just needs a smarter mechanic on the back end of the tools.

There was a runner M38A1 sold privately here a few weeks ago. I think the seller sent it to the US.

Depending on what else comes with the purchase, $4000 might not be a bad price. Canvas top, doors, tarp support, door rods, straps, built-in winch, jerry can, small body fittings that come off with a screwdriver, radio IKEE components (tray, antenna base, cabling, etc), battery hold-down frames, etc ...

[Wpns 421]

Last August we bought a 1967 M38 A1 Cdn it came with a 1954 trailer. We paid $7500.00 and it came with a few surprises. We repainted the jeep to the right(if there ever is a right)color and we will be rebuilding the fuel pump plus a tune up etc. If you get a good condition jeep for $4000 it is a good deal. Finding a good jeeps is getting rare or you are going to pay dearly for it. The Americans are buying all we have because this type of vehicle has been out of produxtion for 25-30 years and are becoming hard to find. In todays world if you want a jeep you pay for it. Gilles

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

I was just wondering what series a 1970 M38A1 might be as I know there was a 1,2 and 3.

What is the average fair market value right now on a complete runner in decent shape?

Chris, I can tell you this much. We're experiencing exceptionally strong growth in Vietnam War reenacting here in the U.S. with an collateral rise in demand (and price) of vehicles, weapons and gear. What may seem dear this year will seem reasonable in two years and cheap in four. Case in point: I bought an M37B1 a year ago for $3,500.00 which I've since put another $3,000.00 into (excluding radios) and already I'm getting offers to buy in the 12's inspite of the recession. We're on the right side of the curve to buy right now.

Regards, Derek.

[chris vickery]

New M38A1 is now home!!!!

Got a recent decent deal on it. Has new tires, new batteries and even a full jerrycan!

Can someone out there tell me if the CFR# would be anywhere other than the top lh frame rail? This one is a bit of a mystery as it appears that there may have been some repair to this area, possibly scrubbing the cfr away by grinding although with copious amounts of paint there it may be hidden underneath. Further investigation is required.

It does carry a cfr on the hood and dash of 70-08669 which does exist in the database and does corelate to the VIN of 10071 as on the ownership. Did the CF ever use black lettering for this as this is what is on the jeep? The problem I am having here is that by all accounts it appears to be a Canadian M38A1 CDN3 but has brass American Marine Corps data tags that are old NOS but unstamped???? Possibly just a set someone threw on???

It has 10" brake drums, turn sigs, hot water heater, un hinged type grill etc but has wire mesh headlight guards, again maybe an addition? I thought these guards were typical of the 1952 era M38A1s? It does have holes in the grill for the bar type guards as well.

[rob love]

CFRs on the frame was a 50s thing. It wasn't on the 67/70 pattern jeeps. You would have to go by the vehicle's serial number to confirm the CFR. If the data plate on the dash is blank, then how about the one behind the passenger seat on the wheel well? If that is also missing, then you will have to go by the stencilled CFRs. There were no other serial numbers that I can recall on a Cdn3 other than those two locations.

Normally the dash would have been the white stickers. In later service, and once in the units, this could be replaced with anything from stencils to grease pencil. Often the white stickers were painted over. CFRs were not normally on the hoods of this era, so it could be something from it's post service life. Since most M38A1s were in militia use in the late 70s/early 80s, there was not a consistent marking scheme for them.

The grill type headlamp covers would likely be a civilian replacement. The single bar over each lamp is what should be there.

[Mike Baker]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

New M38A1 is now home!!!!

Can someone out there tell me if the CFR# would be anywhere other than the top lh frame rail?

The problem I am having here is that by all accounts it appears to be a Canadian M38A1 CDN3 but has brass American Marine Corps data tags that are old NOS but unstamped???? Possibly just a set someone threw on???

It has 10" brake drums, turn sigs, hot water heater, un hinged type grill etc but has wire mesh headlight guards, again maybe an addition? I thought these guards were typical of the 1952 era M38A1s? It does have holes in the grill for the bar type guards as well.

Chris,

Congratulations! Do you have any pics to post? I don't know of anywhere else where the CFR could be found, but the Army did stop stamping the frame rails at some point (the 1952 M-100 I briefly owned was stamped, my '67 CDN2 is not), so if yours is a CDN3 it will probably not be stamped.

The data plates are probably additions to replace the Canadian ones, which may have faded (the printed parts of mine are very faded).

10" drums definitely suggests CDN3, but some CDN2s were also upgraded with 10" brakes. Both CDN2s and 3s have turn signals (but US models didn't, so far as I am aware), the heater and the unhinged grill. The wire mesh is likely aftermarket, and the bar guards are something I am not sure about. Some seem to have had them, others don't (my CDN2 has neither guards nor holes for them).

My VIN on the registration (I think, because ICBC still won't let me register it - I am inferring from their letters to me) corresponds to the manufacturer's number on the data plate, and to a CFR in the database (67-07840).

Good luck!

Mike

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Mike Baker

10" drums definitely suggests CDN3, but some CDN2s were also upgraded with 10" brakes.

I have never seen a mod instruction or CFTO authorizing the change of the smaller brakes to the larger. In fact, if I recall, the rear backing plates would not even change across from a Cdn 3 to the earlier Cdn2 axle. It would have required the complete axle assembly to have been changed over, which would also require the different U bolts. I seem to recall a CFTO on that change over if required.

It may have just been that someone ordered in a wrong axle assembly for a Cdn2, or that axle assemblies had been salvaged from Cdn3 PCC'd jeeps. It could have been a problem if only a front axle had the larger brakes than a rear axle, as this could have resulted in over braking on the steering axle. The larger self actuating brakes were a marked improvement over those puny simple original brakes.

I would agree with your theory on the data plates. The earlier ones could have faded, or have been taken as a souvenir by someone. It was only recently that anyone was making replacement data plates for the Cdn Jeeps. With the few that are out there, it is a miracle that anyone has bothered to invest the money into such a product.

[rob love]

Just another quick post to detail some of the Cdn3 characteristics if you want to confirm the Jeep is a 70/71 year Cdn3. There should be the flat faced (no hubcap) rear one piece axles, and the larger brakes. As Mike mentioned, these can be swapped about to other years. Also look for a small 5" square plates boxing the frame over the front hangers of the rear springs. Also, the seat belt backing washers were square and welded to the body. On the earlier jeeps they were an add on, and used round backing washers. The body and frame were items that would not usually be swapped out or upgraded on earlier jeeps. As well, look for closed hood hinges, as opposed to the open hinges which would allow the hood to be removed when opened to a certain angle. Often, if you forgot to latch the hood on a Cdn2, the hood would fly open and out of the hinges, and bounce of the driver's head as punishment for the omission.

There were other minor differences between Cdn2 and Cdn3, but these are the ones that come to mind to provide quick ID of the Jeeps year.

[chris vickery]

Thanks for the help, I will try to post some pics soon...

When I purchased said veh, the hood numbers seemed odd to me, both colour and the fact they were there at all. I did track them on the data base at Tank net. According to that site, 70-80669 should have a VIN of 10071. When the guy showed me the owndership, it was indeed titled as VIN 10071. I don't know if someone pulled this set of numbers out of thin air but they are related at least.

I know data plates were often stolen or removed during a vehs lifetime, especially after service life. The odd thing to me is that the replacement plates are US ones, they are old and they are bare of any data. The plate on the rear well seems to gone astray as well.
I know that the MTO here in Ontario will not duplicate serial numbers so the fact it is registered as 10071 I am going to assume that is its true identity unless someone can come up with another original M38A1 CDN3 with intact data plates showing me otherwise...

According to research done by another fellow here on MLU, it was suggested to me that this unit was deemed surplus around May 1983 having come out of CFB Borden. Previous to this it was stationed at CFB London from Jan 1970 to 1979. Currently it bears a coloured CDN flag on the front right and rear left sides as well as a blue over white rectangular patch, I believe is RCASC. In 1970 I am not sure that this would have been correct as I am not familiar with modern emblems used in the 70s and 80s.

It is possible of course that someone added his own artitic ability to this or maybe marked it according to a fellows former Aos,, hard to say as the chap who sold this to me was doing so on behalf of an estate and the former owner isn't available for comment...

As far a headlight covers I did see something which indicated early 1952s were issued with wire mesh guards, perhaps a surplus item added later by the owner although not correct.

The rear axles are flat type and the hinges appear to be closed type on the hood. I did measure the brake backers and they are 10".

[chris vickery]

Rob, futher to my last, can you confirm when the CF went from single colour OD to the black and green scheme as well as the changeover from coloured insignia to subdued black on green?

[rob love]

I don't have the exact changeover date, but I joined the reserves in 78, and the jeeps in the FGH already had several coats of paint by that point. The 5/4 tons came out in 76 and they too already had the cam pattern from the factory. The same cam pattern was used earlier but with white instead of one of the greens. Of the 30 M151A2s I bought, I only noticed the white pattern on one of them, so it was likely phased out by the mid 70s. As well, most of the 3/4 tons I saw had the white rather than the green.

There seemed to be a mix of the cam pattern with the white vs the solid semi gloss green depending on what unit the trucks were with. Comm squadrons in particular did not seem too quick to cam their vehicles.


Based on all this, I would guess at mid 70s for the change to 3 colors of green.

As to the colored tach signs, I believe they changed around the late 60s. Again, the comm squdrons seemed to keep their colored tach signs a lot longer. In fact the decals for the comm sqn tach signs were still available in the supply system not that many years ago.

[Scott Bentley]

Chris,

Little CFR update now that I have access to the better server:

Holding Unit History

As of 01-FEB-11

CFR No Departure Arrival HUIC Unit
08669* 06-May-83 04-Sep-79 0113* CFB Borden
08669* 04-Sep-79 01-Jan-70 0131* CFB LONDON
Modification History

As of 01-FEB-11

Modification History of CFR : 08669

Modification No Modification Complete Date Completed
30010000CF003* NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THIS MODIFICATION YES
30100000CF014* NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THIS MODIFICATION NO
30104000CF001* NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THIS MODIFICATION NO

Work Order Details

As of 01-FEB-11
CFR Number : 08669
Format Work Order Number SS Date Completed CIN HUIC Usage Qty Parts ($) Rebuild
5 L01086 29-Sep-78 551* 5009* 25814 1 0 NO
5 L05964 30-Nov-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO
5 L05460 29-Aug-77 551* 5009* 22529 1 325 NO
5 L03992 30-Jun-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO
5 L03182 14-Mar-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO
5 L02883 21-Feb-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO

Looking deep into the Maint records, it appears that this 38A1 actually belonged to 1 Hussars in London prior to going to Borden. Sadly, it appears much of the maint info was never entered, as i'm sure there was plenty more work and mods done to it prior to disposal. The disposal date was actually 9 Sept 88, so this made it one of the last to go to auction.

UPDATE: I bet these guys would be happy to see you turn it back into an Armd Recce Jeep that it most likely once was: http://www.firsthussars.ca/the-museum

Scotty

[chris vickery]

Scotty, thank you for the updates, any and all info is greatly appreciated.
Would I be correct in assuming a transfer to CFB Borden was likely the result of base closures in the late 80's? I believe CFB London saw closure around this time.
Armd recce sounds great, this is how it will apear, now require any and all info pertient to this unit. Perhaps some pics may be around of it in service!
Another interesting item is that I am wondering one of two things;
Either it was held in service until the last auction because
a) it was one of the better ones left or
b) it was one of the immobile scrap ones
Considering the shape it is in I am assuming (a) to be the case.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Scotty, thank you for the updates, any and all info is greatly appreciated.
Would I be correct in assuming a transfer to CFB Borden was likely the result of base closures in the late 80's? I believe CFB London saw closure around this time.
Armd recce sounds great, this is how it will apear, now require any and all info pertient to this unit. Perhaps some pics may be around of it in service!

Chris,

I'm no expert, but I'd say it likely went to Borden to accrue some mileage. Others like Rob can chime in, but if things in the late 70s - 80s are anything like now, they swap vehicles around to level the "fleet mileage". In the case of yours, it only accumulated 25k miles in 10 years, so it was probably sent to Borden to give another a break.

I was hesitant to mention it earlier, bit I've seen the pictures of this one when it was for sale and my gut tells me the Signals Decal and the Hood Markings were all done post disposal auction (albeit the CFR seems dead on). In this case you've got some proven provenance for an Armd Recce Unit, so bring on the "G-Pig" mount and wire cutter and get her back to her original "weekend" glory. Enjoy.

Scotty

[chris vickery]

Scotty, like I mentioned before, the former owner isn't available to give me a history on this post surplus so I can only assume some artistic license was taken on the markings for whatever reason.

It was licensed on the road for the past 20+ years so it must have had some sort of serial numbers at the time it was registered by the Ministry of Transportation Ontario. Of course it is an assumption but having a correct CFR number which just so happens to match a real VIN on the database leads me to believe that it is correct unless the former owner was a stickler for correctness or a real mv buff like the rest of us and pulled up a matched set. Not likely.

Considering that the other markings seem to be bogus, I think that the old owner had made it up as he wanted it, either he was a former CF member or just picked some marking out of thin air. As far as I can ascertain he just liked old stuff and this was his cottage jeep.

I will check with the MTO to see if they can tell me how long it has actually been registered in the system as it may shed light on things.

[chris vickery]

Heres a picture of the jeep

[chris vickery]

Another query Scotty as you seem versed in the CF system.
You have given me a holding unit history which is entered as 01 Jan 70 when this unit was entered into the system. Was this date an arbitrary date for all jeeps delivered under the CDN3 contract for the year 1970? My reason for asking is that 70-08669 would make it one of the first registered under the final contract. Are CFRs issued at random or sequentially upon delivery of vehicles from the manufacturer?

According to an older post by Rob Love for CFR number range, CDN3s started at 70-08500
Can you check other CFRs prior to mine to see if all units from 08500 to 08669 were entered as 01 Jan 70???

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Another query Scotty as you seem versed in the CF system.
You have given me a holding unit history which is entered as 01 Jan 70 when this unit was entered into the system. Was this date an arbitrary date for all jeeps delivered under the CDN3 contract for the year 1970? My reason for asking is that 70-08669 would make it one of the first registered under the final contract. Are CFRs issued at random or sequentially upon delivery of vehicles from the manufacturer?

According to an older post by Rob Love for CFR number range, CDN3s started at 70-08500
Can you check other CFRs prior to mine to see if all units from 08500 to 08669 were entered as 01 Jan 70???

The Mfg Serial Numbers and CFRs are generally not perfectly sequential, but lower numbers usually have lower CFRs, save for the odd flier. The date that it entered service is usually the start of the contract number. I can go back and check to see where the CDN3s spilled over to 71. If memory serves me correct, the change to 71 was nearly dead in the middle of the CDN3 pack.

[rob love]

I am not certain looking at the photos of your jeep, but is there a patch over the holes that would mount the GPMG bracket? These should be just above and behind the slave receptacle recess.

Mind you, it is possible that the Jeep, even if it was with the Hussars, would not have received the GPMG arm. Not all recce unit's jeeps got it, just the ones that were providing that role. My old unit had it on all the M38A1s, but we also had M151A2s for the officers rovers, which did not get the mounts of course.

There was a large SMP fleet rotation back in the early 80s, but it was around 82/83 if I recall. We got some M38A1s in from Pet, and were astounded by the amount of patches and Bondo on the bodies. There were not always a lot of rhyme or reason for VMOs. Sometimes units had shrunk in size so they had more vehs on their charge than their entitlement. Other times, it seemed as though the vehicle managers were just throwing darts at a board.

25,000 miles was not unusual for a militia Jeep. Many of the ones that were disposed of around here were in the 30,000-45,000 mile range.

The late turn in date may reflect a low priority unit not receiving it's replacement Iltis until very late in the program. I did the PCC on a duece in late 1986, long after all the others had left. The losing unit did not get a new truck, so they were intent on keeping the old one. Another example would be my old truck 88D, a 5/4 ton MRT. I watched it go down the road while standing on a parade here in Shilo in 1996, long after all the others had left service. At that point, it had reached 20 years of service.

[chris vickery]

Greetings Rob

I really really appreciate the help here. Yes there is a patch on the area where you indicate a gpmg mount would have been although without removing it it is hard to say if this is indeed the case.

Do you have any gpmg mounts or access to any, if so let me know as I WILL TAKE ONE!!!

My reason for asking the many questions re the CFRs, VINs etc is that I will get a replica data plate set and will require the proper numbers and way they were formatted to get stamped on the plates. Does anyone have a set with a picture so I can seee what they look like?

Currently this unit show 34,000miles give or take. Rob, are those tires milspec issue or a civvy aftermarket set? I am arguing with a guy who say they are but I say they aren't..

[rob love]

If you look inside the tub, you should be able to see the holes. There were 5 or 6 if I recall, and they were a fair size.

There are still some GPMG arms at the local scrap yard, but it is getting near the end. There might be one full set left. At a minimum the arms are still there, and I recall one base missing it's pin portion. It will have to wait until spring though....Winter in S. Ontario is not the same as winter in Manitoba. Your worst day is one of our better days.

There are a lot of the wirecutter bars out there, but postage will cost more than the bars.

I have a spare data plate set out in the shed, but I can't remember if it is Cdn2 or Cdn 3. I'll let you know next time I get to the shed.

The tires are definitely civvy aftermarket. The odd jeep had the civvy tires but they were a local purchase item, and local purchase was not something freely done back then. The standard issue non-directional tires were nicknamed "suicide tires", because if the road was icy, they had no traction whatsoever, and doing unscheduled 360 spins was not uncommon.

Of the 30 or 40 Cdn2 and Cdn3 jeeps in this district, I only recall the one at Kenora as having the civilian tires.

[Mike Baker]

Willy's Acres (north of Barrie) sells nice reproduction CDN2 and CDN3 data plate sets, which can be found on this page:

http://www.willysacres.com/m38a1military.html

Only issues are:
1) He wants $120 per set, which is kind of steep; and
2) I have never had any luck actually getting hold of anyone at Willy's Acres. I have called repeatedly, left messages and sent e-mails, and I have never received any response whatsoever.

Good luck.

PS - for anyone with access to a parts CDN2 or CDN3, I am looking for a front bumper. My current one is seriously aftermarket, and I am trying to replace or remove all the post-service add-ons (except the Warn Overdrive).

Mike

[Mike Baker]

Originally Posted by rob love

I have never seen a mod instruction or CFTO authorizing the change of the smaller brakes to the larger. In fact, if I recall, the rear backing plates would not even change across from a Cdn 3 to the earlier Cdn2 axle. It would have required the complete axle assembly to have been changed over, which would also require the different U bolts. I seem to recall a CFTO on that change over if required.

My understanding was that the axles were changed on quite a few of the CDN2s, but I will defer to your experience, especially given that I was still in elementary school when my CDN2 was retired from the service. It still has the 9" drums.

Another question for my own benefit - the VMO history for my truck indicates that it served in Wainwright and then Chilliwack, which is where is was retired. No units are listed, and the maintenance was all done by the bases. However, my canvas top had "BCR" stencilled on it in white paint. BCR would be the BC Regiment, but what are the odds that my truck was actually used by them? Did militia units do their own maintenance back then, or would it make sense that the vehicle sat in Chilliwack most of the time?

Thanks.

Mike

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Mike Baker

Another question for my own benefit - the VMO history for my truck indicates that it served in Wainwright and then Chilliwack, which is where is was retired. No units are listed, and the maintenance was all done by the bases. However, my canvas top had "BCR" stencilled on it in white paint. BCR would be the BC Regiment, but what are the odds that my truck was actually used by them? Did militia units do their own maintenance back then, or would it make sense that the vehicle sat in Chilliwack most of the time?

Thanks.

Mike

Its not unusual (nowadays) for Reserve Units to have vehicles pooled at the closest Area Support Unit. This is especially true for places like Chilliwack, London, Toronto, Halifax etc. Even the Reg Force has shifter to this to some extent with CMTC by having the MRTF fleet that is set aside for deployment training. It is usually the Reserve Units that are far removed that usually keep a dedicated small fleet.

In the case of your Jeep coming from Chilliwack, it was most likely part of the pool there and could have been in use with any of the Lower Mainland reserve units as well as CFSME, CFOCS and possibly even 1 CER. Even during my time in the Wack in the early 90s, the Base Tpt Section held a fairly significant SMP Fleet. There was also the DMER pool, but it was mostly Engineer Specific equipment and trucks.

A side note, I also had a 38A1 CDN2 (forgot the CFR) back when I lived out there. It had TAC signs from the Royal Westminster Regiment and yet the Doors and Cavnvas were marked BC Dragoons.....

Scotty

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Mike Baker

My understanding was that the axles were changed on quite a few of the CDN2s, but I will defer to your experience, especially given that I was still in elementary school when my CDN2 was retired from the service. It still has the 9" drums.

Another question for my own benefit - the VMO history for my truck indicates that it served in Wainwright and then Chilliwack, which is where is was retired. No units are listed, and the maintenance was all done by the bases. However, my canvas top had "BCR" stencilled on it in white paint. BCR would be the BC Regiment, but what are the odds that my truck was actually used by them? Did militia units do their own maintenance back then, or would it make sense that the vehicle sat in Chilliwack most of the time?

Thanks.

Mike

I have seen a reference to the brake upgrades in the Service Publication's pamphlet on the Jeeps. I never saw any evidence of that in Western Canada, and at one point in the early 80s I had my hands on just about every M38A1Cdn from Alberta to Northern On. I was a jeep nut then, and always kept my eye open for anomolies.

The swapping and outright theft of tarps between vehicles was quite common. When units brought all their vehicles to the summer camps like Dundurn, all the EIS would be turned in to transport on arrival. There was not a lot of call for the canvas during the summer. At the end of the summer, tarps would be handed back out to vehicles as they left, usually with no regard as to unit markings. This was much to the chagrin of those unit quartermasters who actually took the time to get the canvas repaired thru the winter. As a result of this, you could find canvas swapped around between pretty much any unit in Western Canada.

As well, vehicles waiting in parking lots like a base transport were prime candidates for a driver to upgrade or replace missing or damaged canvas. Even seats could move between vehicles, and there was even the occasional heater which would disappear. When I was in 2VP, we actually installed grommets with cables and locks around the rollbar on our Maint O's Iltis. Nothing was sacred out in a parking lot. Before a rail move, you pretty much had to lock up your D rings. Even batteries seemed to vaporize during the winter months, including on priority vehicles like ambulances.

Even on release and sale, tarps would go walking. At the crown assets auctions in Winnipeg, a jeep with full tarp would sell for significantly more than a bare unit. More than one owner would pay for his Jeep in the office, only to walk out and find his fully tarped Jeep was now bare. In some cases, guys seemed to bid almost $1,000 more for a complete unit.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

The swapping and outright theft of tarps between vehicles was quite common.

Even batteries seemed to vaporize during the winter months, including on priority vehicles like ambulances.

I nearly fell out of my chair laughing with those comments

Our biggest heist was the Fuel Fired Heater out of an M113A2 Pioneer Dozer. At that point we were pulling them for repair so often that two guys (the wrench operator and a lookout man) could execute the Re & Re job with "Mission Impossible" speed and accuracy. Because of the "stellar" reliability record of those heaters, the victim never suspected that they were robbed

Mind you, by that point most crews had Propane Red Eyes and a BBQ Bottle on the roof as a backup for when the old Screaming Inferno heater decided to make its cough of death. Nothing like Mech Warfare in February....

[Jon Skagfeld]

Chris: Brian Asbury has CDN3 data plate sets for $110.00 (including rivets and screws). Contact him to bring a set to Acton. I got mine from him and am quite satisfied.