New Hampshire CMP Barn 2011- 2012 HUP Overhaul

[Bob Carriere]

...to bag everything and box everything....and was partly successful....but I still need to look for parts.......

At the barn I have this great system...... when I am finished with something I usually very carefully put it away some where very secure so I will not loose it..... than 6 months later I can't remember the secure place.......

....then I ask Grant ...Have you seen my spare E brake handle...? it was just here a few days ago..... a while goes by and Grant comes back and says I know where it is.... for $5,00 I can tell you where to find it.

He will never be rich as he usually tells me where to find it...before collecting...... sure beats trying to get organise..... just have Grant around !!!!

The other way is to go out and buy a repalcement then you will always find the item you where looking for.

At least Phil you cannot blame anyone else for moving rro misplacing your parts.

Wait until Al Zeimehr kicks in....... I will have the only CMP with a Pinto rear end.....

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Today's dis-assembly tip, that you find when assembling the parts months later or even the next day. Take a look at the picture below of the linkages laid out on the table. You should notice one thing, but might miss the second important thing but they are related.

Well of course you will note that like almost all linkages on CMPs they are adjustable. What is missing from the picture though is a measurement of each one made before you disassemble them to clean them. What I now realize I should have done is laid them all on a piece of paper measured the overall length of each written that on the paper next to each linkage and then taken a picture. Which would have save me a lot of time get the linkages into adjustment when reinstalling them.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

What do these two products have in common?


They both remove paint and strangely the one on the right seems to actually work better, is cheaper, environmentally more friendly. Washing soda has come up over the years many times on MLU for various reasons such as Restoration Tip: Electrolysis Derusting, degreaser etc.

Well it was in the process of using it as a degreaser that its paint removing characteristics came out. Like with any degreaser they work better if the the part, grease and liquid are hot. So one day I throw bunch of grease small parts into an old electric fry pan with 1/2 cup of washing soda and gallon of water and left the whole thing to simmer for awhile while I did something else. The parts had a thick layer of grease on top of many layers of paint. When I pulled a part out of the simmering stew and when at it with a small wire brush not only did the grease come off but the paint as well.

The pictures below show parts simmering, what they look like as removed and after a few minutes with a wire brush.

Then spraying the parts with a good water based degreaser and washing the parts with hot water leaves them ready to paint.

Tomorrow I'm going to try hitting them with hot water pressure spray see if that will clean small parts which are hard to wire brush.

If that works got to find a bigger boiling tank.

As to the Aircraft Coating Remover, found that this tends to only remove one layer of paint at a time.

Comments and suggestions please.

Cheers Phil

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All

What do these two products have in common?


They both remove paint and strangely the one on the right seems to actually work better, is cheaper, environmentally more friendly. Washing soda has come up over the years many times on MLU for various reasons such as Restoration Tip: Electrolysis Derusting, degreaser etc.

Well it was in the process of using it as a degreaser that its paint removing characteristics came out. Like with any degreaser they work better if the the part, grease and liquid are hot. So one day I throw bunch of grease small parts into an old electric fry pan with 1/2 cup of washing soda and gallon of water and left the whole thing to simmer for awhile while I did something else. The parts had a thick layer of grease on top of many layers of paint. When I pulled a part out of the simmering stew and when at it with a small wire brush not only did the grease come off but the paint as well.

The pictures below show parts simmering, what they look like as removed and after a few minutes with a wire brush.

Then spraying the parts with a good water based degreaser and washing the parts with hot water leaves them ready to paint.

Tomorrow I'm going to try hitting them with hot water pressure spray see if that will clean small parts which are hard to wire brush.

If that works got to find a bigger boiling tank.

As to the Aircraft Coating Remover, found that this tends to only remove one layer of paint at a time.

Comments and suggestions please.

Cheers Phil

Phil..
I use that for oven cleaner also..The ingredient that is doing all the heavy lifting is sodium carbonate...sodium BI-carbonate will make you burp and will clean battery terminals but the sodium carbonate is the big lifter in Grandmas washing soda..

[Bob Carriere]

.....still allows you in the kitchen unsupervised...?

Will call you......

Bob

[Stew Robertson]

Just add your battery charger and it will also get rid of the rust
Good for everything
Stew

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Stew

I have used washing soda in the past with power supply to derust parts works pretty good.

But using washing soda hot at a higher concentration does a pretty good job of softening multilayer of paint and clearing some of the rust. Was reminded this morning that if you let paint on a part cool off and dry out the paint gets surprisingly hard again.

Really should do some controlled experiments to see what concentrations, at what temperature work best. But that will have to wait until I have the HUP back together. Right now my priority is to gets those last bits that I didn't clean when disassembling cleaned and repainted so they can go back on the truck.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Well Summer Temperatures are back and I've been painting, like mad. With most major parts now primed and the first coat of color on. Plan to do the flat top coat after reassembly of doors, fenders etc.


While the paint was drying in this afternoons 90+F heat I also got to work on adding more pictures and text to website HUP Over haul pages and doing some revamping of the link structure.
http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/index.html The home page/index has been updated to make sorting through what was done when easier.
http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H...11%20March.htm Covers March
http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H...12%20April.htm Covers April so far

Cheers Phil

[jason meade]

You must have got through all that reading I sent you if your out painting..Great looking Job!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Jason

I'm reading through and enjoying, cross reading with other sources to see how changes took place. Thanks

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Well, I’m looking for comment from some of you who have restored 216 cu.in. Chevy engines. As you will know from previous posts I make it a practice of running engines on a test stand before putting them into the truck. I thought I was already to put the rebuilt original engine back in my HUP and was doing a long run (50 hour plus) on the engine to really get the temperatures fully equalized so I could do a finial adjustment of the valves. While I was doing this I noticed that at a low idle of 450-400 rpm the engine is only producing 5-6 PSI of oil pressure not unusual for 216s but, when I removed the valve cover I discovered that the oil flow out of by pass for the rocker arms was a lot less that what I every remember seeing. Flow from the individual rockers was OK but the total oil flow running out of the upper gallery is less than I remember from previous engine rebuilds.

Here is the list of what was done on the engine that would effect oil pressure and flow:

• Crank ground and all new fitted main bearings.
• New cam and cam bearings
• New rocker arm shafts
• New oil pump
• New block to pan oil fitting.

What have I already checked:

• Put a valve in the oil line to the oil filter to see if too much oil was passing to the oil filter- no affect on oil pressure or on flow in the valve gallery.
• Checked the oil bypass control valve to be sure I had assembled the gaskets in the correct order and that the poppet valve didn’t have something under it. Everything looked OK.
• Took sample of oil doesn’t smell of gas and seems to flow like new oil, color light caramel.

If you wonder about the long test run on the test stand being a lot of fuel, it is but I manage to time my engine running to winter. With the engine exhaust hard piped out of the shop, running the engines is doing double duty, running in the engine but also heating the shop at the same time so I’m not burning any propane to heat the shop.

Wanted to ask for comments before I start tearing the engine down.

In particular how much oil have other people noticed running out of the rocker arm bypass tube in well run in engines? My memory is telling me it should be a good steady stream just under ¼ “ diameter.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

The oil pump for possible air leaks on the sucking system......or attachment of pump to block....

Possible too much clearance on bearings....... the hard bearing to check for clearance will be the camshaft.

You should be able to check oil pressure and all possible leaks by running the oil pump with a hi torque 3/8 or 1/2 inch drill with out running the engine..... that way you can check for large leak on crank. cam. valve train..... you may need to set up a larger oil container with a rubber tube from the pump to a 5 gallon can..... it will be messy....... cranking the engine by hand will also be feasible....... using the starter may prove to be dangerous as it will spin fast if the plugs are removed....... you engine stand will earn it money....

I got 42 pounds of oil pressure on my 261 using a hi torque screw gun......

Good luck....... keep us posted..... and wash you hands when you are finished.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Good points Bob, I'm trying to see if I'm over looking something simple and to line up my thinking before taking things apart again.

Your point about using the a drill to check the pressure and flow raises an interesting question what is the RPM of the distributor vs. RPM of the engine? I can not remember if it is one to one.

As to the max pressure you mention for the 261 same for my 261 and 235 they basically max out at 42 psi though they will go higher on cold start with cold oil. Once the engine oil is warm the bypass in the pump itself starts dumping. Now I will have to check a 216 pump to see if same pressure max.

Wonder if I should just change the oil, wonder if the combination of all the assembly lube or dilution. When I pulled the head to get a better alignment on the side gasket, I pumped several ounces of oil into each cylinder to prevent any coolant from getting into the sump. (see http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H...12%20April.htm ) Because of how I drained and sucked the cooling system clean of coolant before removing the head there was no water in any of the cylinders when I pulled the head off. But I wonder if maybe I did dilute the oil with lighter oil?

Your idea of hitching the pump up to external source of oil with pan off to see if the crank or cam are dumping oil is a good one. Messy but good.

One of the reasons I wish the Hammond Barn was closer so I could just pop in and look at another 216 engine running with the valve cover off. But having said that I'll take the valve cover of the C60L after it is warm and see how much oil is coming through the bypass.

As to washing my hands afterwards I always wear the blue rubber gloves.


Appreciate your input.

[Bob Carriere]

But we would not be in this hobby if we wanted to keep clean.!!!!

Dizzy is driven by the camshaft gear and should run twice as fast as the engine crankshaft...... so a 3000 rpm drill is equivalent to 1500 RPM..... which is about mid range for the 216...more or less......

When I was priming my 261 with the drill and did not think that the pressure could get that high and did not bother installing hose clamps on the oil line to the external spin on oil filter..... big mistake,,,, the line came off....1/2 inch line .... and dumped half the crankcase oil on the floor before I could turn it off.

Yeah I wish you were closer and we could both get down and oily together.

One more reason for using a discarded CMP frame...... with the engine higher off the ground I could install a 5 gallon can below the engine with a light sheet metal trough wide nough to catch all the dripping oil and flow it into the 5 gal. can...... I would fit an extension rubber hose on the pick up from the pump where the screen fits....and clamp it so no air enters......

I would use the cheapest 10w30 bulk oil I could find.... and only use it for the test...... then I would recycle the oil in my wood furnace next Winter...!!!

...or you could just dump the oil you now have with possibly some dilution and fill it with fresh 20-50 racing oil...... and see how it behaves..... certainly worth the oil cost and effort at this stage......

You better get yourself the arm long rubber gloves used by vets... the short blue Nitryle ones will never suffice.... you will be going deep with this one.

If you are going to test out the C60 try using the same oil pressure gauge to eliminate any gauge error.

You are not about to get dry skin !!!!

Bob

[hrpearce]

Bob the camshaft runs at half the pace of the crank shaft in a four stroke engine.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike

Good eyes, I had never noticed the camo on Unit 4, now I'll have to go through all the pictures again to look at the points you spotted.

If anybody comes across any photos of CBC or BBC recording equipment, people, or vehicles from this period please send them along as I am constantly being amazed at what is turning up on the web. Every now and then somebody at the CBC archives puts up an new bit or reorganizes and shows a better photo, or digs up another audio track.

Sort of the holy grail for me would be to find the actual audio recordings that were made by the BBC crew of the Eisenhower Parade in New York in my HUP as shown in the film of them driving the HUP along side Eisenhower's parade car. http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/R...%20V1_0002.wmv.

Thanks again Mike


Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Well after spending 2 days cleaning up and setting up the other engine, I started it this afternoon. After the smoke cleared from all the oil put in the cylinders when I put the engine away it settled right down and ran just as smooth as it did before it came out of the C60S Beauty.

But to the big question oil flow and pressure. Looks to be exactly the same as the rebuilt engine. So maybe what I was worrying about is actually their normal state of operation. Got to fix a couple of minor coolant leaks and then I really give it a long run to double check everything.

The work to get the engine completely setup just as it came out Beauty is not wasted. Now I have the original engine from Beauty all set up.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I had put the wiring harness in several weeks ago, but this week I started actually connecting everything up and powering up the lights. Wiring harness is a duplicate of the original harness that I made up about 20 years ago. So things went pretty smoothly other than dirt or fading made reading some of the color traces hard. Took two days to get the dash and rear lights all connected up and working.

Only problem that I have not figured out is that the when the brake lights come on they are not brighter than the tail lights. Bit of a problem only way you can tell that the brake lights come on is that two more of the little tail lights come on.

While in the big modern tail light assemblies that have two element bulbs 1154s. When the only the brake is on that element is noticeably brighter than the tail only but when both are on together there is no difference. So I suspect a cross connection or poor ground in one (both) of the tail light assemblies.

When I made the new harness I used all the correct color codes and sizes (modern wire but with cloth covering) it is copper wire instead of the original steel strand wire. I have the original harness all pinned out on a 3x8 piece of plywood with all the wires labeled. Is what I have used to make wiring harnesses and as a large reference.

Cheers Phil

[Harry Moon]

If your taillights are the bigger rubber ones you can get 6 volt LED bulbs to fit in them
i used LED on my brake lights on my CMP when it was 6 volt the work on a 2 bulb circuit but not a 4 bulb circuit. It did make them much brighter than the running light.
Now though I switched the battery and the voltage regulator to 12 volt and put LED bulbs in all the lights including the dash lights. I put a pencil light as the running lights on the back and the larger early rubber lights for the break lights, cause I had a pair available at the time.

I was out working on my 20 CWT trailer, all set up and making progress when my wife dropped by and whispered in my ear, "there's water under the hot water tank".....

[Phil Waterman]

Spent another day working on the lights, connecting the wiring harness. Got all the original CMP lights working fairly easy. Just the normal stuff of poor grounds on freshly painted parts, easy to fix just remove a little paint.

Also did a little voltage testing to find the fixtures that didn't look as bright as they should. Used the volt meter to read voltage of the ground in the light fixture to true ground. If the voltage across the ground was significant went looking for cause. Also did resistance testing but that did not seem as reliable as looking for stray voltage.

WEB 2012 HUP June 028.jpg

The only real problem was with the modern tail lights, just could not get a noticeable difference when the tail lights are on and stepped on the brakes. Did a little measuring to confirm what my eyes were telling me. At one foot got the following readings:
Tail lights only - 22 Foot Candles
Brake lights only - 60-70 Foot Candles
Both tail and brake lights-30 Foot Candles

This really didn't make sense so checked for voltage drop and it looks like is the problem just the number of bulbs or filaments being lit is sucking the voltage down by 2-2.5 volts. Once I mount the battery I'll check to see if the problem goes away, for testing the battery was connected to the HUP with 14 gauge wire coming from the battery on the engine test stand.

But I really like Harry's suggestion of the LED replacements, more light less current being drawn. Just have to find the correct bulb replacements for 6 volt type 63 horizontal mount then vertical mount 1154 and 1129.

I really would like to know how they wired the dash. Just can not figure out an easy way to do it. The problem is the support for the steering wheel which blocks every thing. If you take the support out and wire everything then it is hard to get the bolts of the support in.

WEB 2012 HUP June 025.jpg WEB 2012 HUP June 026.jpg

Best way I found for doing it is with nose off, take the dash and put it up side down on the window ledge. Then wire everything up and test it then remove the lower part of the steering support and swing the dash down some of the wires have to go be hid the support as does the speedometer cable and oil line.

WEB 2012 HUP June 029.jpg

Cheers Phil

[Harry Moon]

https://www.superbrightleds.com/
You can find any bulbs you need here.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Harry

Thanks for the source I'll have to spend some time looking through the site. I'll post what I find.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Need to move stuff around in the shop so I could install the engine, but decided instead of moving the doors again I would reinstall them on the truck. So that was the project for the day, rear and side went right into position no problems.

Though Tony will appreciate this as I tighten the bolts on the rear door a previously invisible fatigue crack appeared. So that will need to be fixed but decided to leave the door mounted to keep it out of the way for now.

Front doors have always been more a fitting problem as anybody who has ever worked on Pattern 13s knows.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All

...as I tighten the bolts on the rear door a previously invisible fatigue crack appeared... Cheers Phil

Phil, For those of us with the HUP affliction, do tell. Where was this crack? Hinge or body?

[Bob Carriere]

....it's a female HUP !!!!!!

Hay KnoKneeMuss

[RHClarke]

I worry about you sometimes, Bob.

[Bob Carriere]

..... it's tooooo late now !!!!

[Private_collector]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Front doors have always been more a fitting problem as anybody who has ever worked on Pattern 13s knows.

Brother, you are soooooo right!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Glad you asked the question when you did, because I had not removed any of the rigging yet, so it was easy to just take more pictures to show the detail. I'll get them organized and posted.

Whats funny is that get the engine in is now the easier part of the job, what is still time consuming is getting everything hooked up that is taking time. Things like replacing the flex fuel line between the body and the engine fuel pump. Have to get a new one because the old one didn't like the ethanol.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

First here is the picture of the fatigue crack found yesterday, upper hinge rear door.
2012 HUP 12 June 003.jpg

Finished installing the front doors and shimming the hinges.

After lunch started on installing the engine 3:20 PM


Engine in sitting on the engine mounts 4:49



See what repetition gets you first time I did this it took me most of 2 days to do what it took an 1 hour and 29 minutes do. Of course this time I had advantage of knowing how to rig the engine, what parts had to be removed for it to slide in and how to get around the center of gravity issue.

Tomorrow, goal is to get it all hooked up and running.

Cheers Phi