ethanol......is it bad?

[Bob Carriere]

Ssshhhttttt !!!!

It occurs in Canada once in a while to run the Ford diesel on red..... seems to like the brew..... at elast $10 cheaper per refill.....

A. NoKneemuss

[Dave Page]

Hi Guys,
This gasahol thing has caused a lot of confusion, I run standard low grade fuel with an octane booster ("Blendzall", a top end lubricant of castor oil) in my Indian and my Daimler, and they both run fine. I also add stabil to the mix over winter.
There are some very intelligent articles on-line and some very misleading ones, the latter will have you buying stainless valve seats and etc.
The truth is the older engines that we run are - low-compression - so do not generate the pressures and heat that would cause valve problems in a high-compression engine. It wasn't that many years before our ww2-engined vehicles that cars were running on an alcohol and castor oil mix.
During the war both unleaded and leaded fuels were used by the military, the lead being added in very high doses to boost the octane of lower grade fuels to eliminate engine knock, this saved a lot of money and time over actually making high quality fuel for everything to run on.
OK, so you need to understand that while lead does boost the octane level it does so at a cost, that being deterioration of the valve stems from the lead salts, and other issues. Let's not even go into the health issues.

By boosting the octane level of low grade fuel you are actually - slowing - the burn rate. Low octane fuel actually burns a lot faster and tend to produce
engine knock. To put this in layman's terms, low octane produces a fast explosion, whereas high octane produces a slower explosion, the latter being
much better for your engine. Think of the piston being hammered downward with low octane rather than progressively shoved downward as with high
octane. Not everyone has access to avgas so if you use the low octane and add a booster (unleaded) and tune your engine well, she will run fine

Also, methanol has been added to petrol tanks for years to absorb condensation, it readily mixed with the petrol, and while the engine may have
coughed a bit, that nasty rusty water was eventually removed from your tank. Having to clean or replace filters was cheaper than replacing the petrol tank.

Cheers,
Dave

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Dave Page

There are some very intelligent articles on-line and some very misleading ones, the latter will have you buying stainless valve seats and etc.
The truth is the older engines that we run are - low-compression - so do not generate the pressures and heat that would cause valve problems in a high-compression engine. It wasn't that many years before our ww2-engined vehicles that cars were running on an alcohol and castor oil mix.
During the war both unleaded and leaded fuels were used by the military, the lead being added in very high doses to boost the octane of lower grade fuels to eliminate engine knock, this saved a lot of money and time over actually making high quality fuel for everything to run on.

I've been reading up on the subject in the past and a good source, among others, is a chapter on the subject in Dr. Ulrich von Pidoll's book "Kaefer: Ein Auto schreibt Geschichte" (Hamburg: Nikol, 1996, ISBN 3-930656-36-1).

Indeed, lead was not added to car petrol until after WW-2. Also, during the war, when the race for higher power output from aircraft engines was in full swing, it was found that by adding lead to petrol the octane rating could be raised (i.e. petrol became more resistant to spontaneous combustion). Thus higher compression ratios and supercharging became possible.

After WW-2, increased power output for car engines was also solved by raising the compression and the revolutions per minute. Adding lead again solved the pre-detonation problem (although up until the 1960s other additives were also used for this purpose). The advantage of lead additives is that after being burned, they act like a solid lubricant on the exhaust valves and seats, and thus reduce the amount of wear over a given period. (The process is comparable to the use of white metal in engine bearings.)

Now that leaded petrol is banned (for our own health), what can we do?

1) fit induction hardened valve seats and valves when rebuilding the engine. This is recommended by the Dutch Federation of Historic Car Clubs, as the cost of hardened seats and valves is only slightly higher than non-hardened ones, and is simply the most durable solution.

But what if we have an engine which is not yet due for a rebuild?

2) Dr. Von Pidoll quotes a 1986 SAE technical paper. A number of SAE tests (incl. one on Army vehicles) proved that the wear on valve seats and valves with unleaded petrol is not noticeably higher (compared with leaded petrol) if the engine is operated under 3,000 rpm.

My own opinion is that the latter is a good tip, as 1940s and 1950s MV engines are rarely operated above 3,000 rpm. over long periods.

HTH,
Hanno

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Indeed, lead was not added to car petrol until after WW-2.

A number of SAE tests (incl. one on Army vehicles) proved that the wear on valve seats and valves with unleaded petrol is not noticeably higher (compared with leaded petrol) if the engine is operated under 3,000 rpm.

My own opinion is that the latter is a good tip, as 1940s and 1950s MV engines are rarely operated above 3,000 rpm. over long periods.

hi Hanno,

I must just comment on the first use of "lead" in car petrol. It was General Motors in the USA who came up with it in the early 1920's and produced the additive with an oil company. It was Tetra ethyl lead, or TEL. It was added to petrol in the UK in the early part of 1930's, I think from memory that you could buy petrol with or without. During WW2, in UK, TEL was added again for military use, in such large quantities, that it actually produced valve problems, and a number of modifications had to be done to engines of military vehicles during the last part of the war.

When leaded was phased out in the UK, a number of lead replacement additive were marketed here and laboratory tests were done at the motor industry research site, using BMC A series engines, the top performer being one called Superblend Zero 2000, which I have used ever since. The fact about engines running below 3000 rpm and not heavily loaded not suffering, was also made during the tests. As it is, I have not come across any noticeable rise in vehicles with valve problems, not like it was in years gone by, when decokes and burnt valves were a common occurance.

[elvis3006]

ok so lead was bad,but it helped lubricate the engine. we no longer use lead,so what can we do or use to protect and lubricate engines when using ethanol fuel, besides a lead additive? a mixture of stabil and automatic transmission fluid?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by elvis3006

ok so lead was bad,but it helped lubricate the engine. we no longer use lead,so what can we do or use to protect and lubricate engines when using ethanol fuel, besides a lead additive? a mixture of stabil and automatic transmission fluid?

I would not use auto transmission fluid, the burning of it could cause plug fouling, even in small amounts, best to use a lead replacement additive. These additives not only contain a chemical that coats the valve seat, as lead did, but also have anti-corrosion, upper cylinder lubricant and other features.

[Ron Pier]

Richard Like you, I went for Superblend Zero 2000. Mainly because it was the one recommended for our low compression low rev MV's. By now most (but not all) of my vehicles have hardened seats fitted. But I have not been able to find it since my initial 5 litre purchase, which is now very low. I have found also that I can't buy STA-BIL at the moment in the UK. Any information by anyone on these products would be gratefully received. Ron

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by elvis3006

ok so lead was bad,but it helped lubricate the engine. we no longer use lead,so what can we do or use to protect and lubricate engines when using ethanol fuel, besides a lead additive? a mixture of stabil and automatic transmission fluid?

If you really want to see some of the differences,study up on Formula 1 racing(Europe) and IRL(Indy Racing League)..United States and study the performance of both cars and fuels..
The IRL runs on Methanol...the Formula 1 cars run on Petrol,with some ethanol..
Here are some of the HP developed by methanol fuel on IRL cars..

http://members.fortunecity.com/1acci...eld_guide.html

An interesting fact is that the teams can not open up the engines or repair or tinker with them at all..strange as it seems but the engine manufacturer is the only one that can play with the engines..I ,as an old school mechanic ,asked my son in law about tinkering with the engines and he said that they are factory sealed and you would only break the seal if you had a death wish..they can pull them out and change the engine complete but not open them at all..(He is a a Racing car engineer in Indianapolis,who is on a team there and lives there and is starting to teach a course to other mechanical engineers at the University there ,on a part time basis)so knows his stuff..
I was surprised to learn that they actually have university courses to teach mechanical engineers how to be Racing car engineers in Indianapolis...


Specifications:
Engine: 3.5 L V8 Normally Aspirated
Horsepower: 650+
Wheelbase: 122in. / 309.9cm
Overall Length: 193.74in. / 492.1cm
Overall Width: 79.55in. / 202.1cm
Overall Height: 37.3in. / 94.7cm
Minimum Weight: 1585lb / 719kg
Habitat: Seen only on Oval courses in the United States. Their main roosting place is the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
Feeding: Methanol

[Dave Page]

Hi Guys,
As was mentioned, if the engine is operating over 3,000 rpm for - extended periods - then some wear would occur, this would still happen even if you were running with a period fuel mix. Modern engines have been designed to withstand running with throttles wide open at highway speeds for extended periods, they also have much higher compression ratios.
The very high temperatures are only generated at the wide open throttle settings. This does not mean you cannot operate your WW2 vehicle above 3,000 rpm for short or reasonable periods, after all, different engine designs ( porting for instance) tuning and etc will produce differences in internal temperature. Just don't try and drive as if it were a modern vehicle capable of modern road speeds, they were not designed for it and cannot stop as do modern vehicles. We have seen the ugly results of that.
If you want to witness the heat generated even by a low compression engine, drive a cmp up a long steep climb at night with the engine cover off. At full throttle under load the exhaust manifold will start to glow red, then orange, then yellow. Not sure those in Holland have access to hills for this test.
Enjoy them while in your care,
Dave

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

I must just comment on the first use of "lead" in car petrol. It was General Motors in the USA who came up with it in the early 1920's and produced the additive with an oil company. It was Tetra ethyl lead, or TEL. It was added to petrol in the UK in the early part of 1930's, I think from memory that you could buy petrol with or without. During WW2, in UK, TEL was added again for military use, in such large quantities, that it actually produced valve problems, and a number of modifications had to be done to engines of military vehicles during the last part of the war.

Hi Richard,

My remark was not about the first use of a chemical compound containing lead, rather when its use became commonplace. After WW-2, increased power demand for car engines was (also) solved by raising the compression and the revolutions per minute. This was an ongoing "race" where engine and petrol engineering go hand in hand. After raising compression and revolutions came the exhaust turbo in the 80s and today the race is on to extract even more power from smaller engines because we strive to lower CO2 and other emissions. State of the art: a 1.4 litre engine delivering 170 hp thanks to a compressor plus a turbo.

Regards,
Hanno

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

After WW-2, increased power demand for car engines was (also) solved by raising the compression and the revolutions per minute. This was an ongoing "race" where engine and petrol engineering go hand in hand. After raising compression and revolutions came the exhaust turbo in the 80s and today the race is on to extract even more power from smaller engines because we strive to lower CO2 and other emissions. State of the art: a 1.4 litre engine delivering 170 hp thanks to a compressor plus a turbo.

Two points:
It's amazing the power engineers are getting out of the smaller engines these days. Case in point: I remember my old 1968 Mercury Cougar put 210hp out of a 5.0l V8 while my wife's 2007 Mazda CX7 gets 244hp from it's diminutive 2.26l four cylinder. To add to the Ethanol debate, the manufacturer warns against using fuel that is higher than 15% ethanol due to detonation, I surmise with the compression from the turbo. How this is going to play out with talk of E85 fuel in the future is beyond me. Perhaps the U.S. government will have another Cash-for-Clunkers program as so many of the vehicles currently produced won't be able to use the new fuel. Whatever they decide, I'm sure it will be based on fuzzy science such as global cooling, sorry, warming and the need to quit financing Islamic terrorism with our petro dollars.

Derek.