21st. Army group Vehicle signs

[Blackpowder44 (RIP)]

I have a book printed by the 21st. Army Group that shows all the vehicle formation signs. These signs were in use only on the vehicles. I will post the first five below, as you can see they relate to Canadian units. There are quite a few more so if you are interested I will post some more. John.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Blackpowder44

I have a book printed by the 21st. Army Group that shows all the vehicle formation signs. These signs were in use only on the vehicles. I will post the first five below, as you can see they relate to Canadian units. There are quite a few more so if you are interested I will post some more. John.

John;

I hate to disappoint you, but none of these ‘formation markings’ pertain to Canadian Army units, they are all in fact for Royal Army Service Corps formations (not Royal Canadian Army Service Corps formations):

image 1 - CRASC 1 Tk Tptr Coln = Commander Royal Army Service Corps 1 Tank Transporter Column
image 2 - CRASC 2 Tk Tptr Coln = Commander Royal Army Service Corps 2 Tank Transporter Column
image 3 - CRASC 20 Tpt Coln = Commander Royal Army Service Corps 20 Transport Column
image 4 - CRASC 21 Tpt Coln = Commander Royal Army Service Corps 21 Transport Column
image 5 - CRASC 24 Tpt Coln = Commander Royal Army Service Corps 24 Transport Column

all of the above are Royal Army Service Corps formations not Royal Canadian Army Service Corps.

Cheers

[Blackpowder44 (RIP)]

Thanks for putting me straight on the meaning of CRASC.On looking at the few cloth shoulder titles I have for Canadian units I see that the title reads RCASC. Never the less on looking through the book I think I have found three examples of Canadian formation signs. John.

[peter simundson]

Great examples of tac signs. Now if only a book can be found showing all the Canadian Tac signs illustrated the same way.

Simundson

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Blackpowder44

... I think I have found three examples of Canadian formation signs

Hi John;

Yes, you are correct:

image 1 - No. 64 Army Transport Company, R.C.A.S.C.
image 2 - No. 85 Bridge Company, R.C.A.S.C.
image 3 - No. 86 Bridge Company, R.C.A.S.C.

all of which served under Headquarters, Commander First Army Transport Column, R.C.A.S.C.

Cheers

[Ed Storey]

Were these signs ever used?

[Blackpowder44 (RIP)]

Originally Posted by edstorey

Were these signs ever used?

In the booklet printed by the Printing and stationary service, 21st, Army Group there are 88 pages of vehicle formation signs, so they must all be recognised as " official" badges. John.

[Ed Storey]

When was the book published? You can get this from the imprint information on the manual.

Sure the signage was 'recongnized', but this does not necessarily mean they were ever used.

Don't ge tme wrong, the book and the images are very interesting, the next step in the process is finding an image of them in use.

[Blackpowder44 (RIP)]

Originally Posted by edstorey

When was the book published? You can get this from the imprint information on the manual.

Sure the signage was 'recongnized', but this does not necessarily mean they were ever used.

Don't ge tme wrong, the book and the images are very interesting, the next step in the process is finding an image of them in use.

In reply Ed,I think that 21st. Army group ceased to exist in late 1945 or early 1946, and begame BAOR . Therefor the book I have shown pictures from must have been published fairly soon after the end of WWII. There is no publishing date in the book itself, only that it was printed by Printing and Stationary Service 21st. Army Group. John.

[Diane Turk]

Hi edstorey! The book that you are referencing of the 21st army, do you have any info on how I might be able to get my hands on it for my veteran?

[Marc - Belgium]

Originally Posted by edstorey

Sure the signage was 'recongnized', but this does not necessarily mean they were ever used.

Don't ge tme wrong, the book and the images are very interesting, the next step in the process is finding an image of them in use.

Here's a photo of one of the signs being used (on the backboard of the truck on the right):


http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...enZutphen1.jpg

I found it on the following website : http://www.monument.apeldoorn-onderw...otogalerij.htm


Here's a cutout of the high-res copy I requested, the unit sign looks like 1319 to me. Any ideas as to which unit this is ?

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...brugcutout.jpg

Marc

[Marc - Belgium]

Here's another one in use (106 Coy RASC).


http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p...ickeyFahey.jpg

I found it here : http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellispratt/page5/

[Keith Brooker]

Here is a link to the Signs in the book. Any one have a scan of the front cover.
http://www.ww2talk.com/index.php?thr...al-book.87862/

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Keith Brooker

Any one have a scan of the front cover.

The original poster of this thread, Blackpowder44 aka John Forsey, also posted on The British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum. John asked another member of that forum to scan and post the images from this book on there. Here is the front and back cover:

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Framed 21st AG and another just because (can you spot the error on the second one?). Trivia for those who may not know, the 21st Army Group got that number because it was made up of the 2nd British Army and the 1st Canadian Army, hence 21.

[Keith Brooker]

The 21st. Army Group book shows all the vehicle formation signs that are all RASC, CRASC, Cdn RASC and a few from Belgium, there are no Div, formation signs that are on the your front cover that are in this book. I just thought they might have added RASC Ect to the front cover. Thanks for adding this cover .
Keith

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Fascinating stuff, these signs are new to me.

I'd like another one to the mix, would this windmill sign fit in this subject or not?

"1680 ARTILLERY PLATOON RASC (LIGHT) IN NORTH WEST EUROPE 1944 - 1945.

Driver Arthur Pratley beside his Ford three ton truck, platoon vehicle lines, Hakenfelderstrasse, Berlin, Summer 1945. Note the unit logo (the windmill) on the cab door."


Source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205039844

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

"1680 ARTILLERY PLATOON RASC (LIGHT) IN NORTH WEST EUROPE 1944 - 1945.

I did not know this unit, a quick search yielded the following:

"The January 2011 Edition of The Military Heraldry Society’s Formation Sign recorded that the windmill vehicle sign illustrated appears in a privately produced history 'The Windmill Boys: The Story of the 1680 Artillery Platoon RASC (Light)'. The Platoon was formed on 11th January 1944 as 1680 Artillery Platoon, RASC (Light) upon a cadre from 739 Coy, RASC part of 22 Transport Column. The Coy also commanded 1673, 1678, 1679, 1686 and 1687 Platoons. Each Platoon comprised five Transport Sections plus HQ Section. In August 1944 1680 Platoon were attached to 147 (Essex Yeomanry) Field Regt, RA. Two months later the Platoon adopted the unofficial windmill vehicle sign shown on the authority of its OC in order to make the Platoon vehicles more recognisable.

A marking with a similar theme appears in the pamphlet, part of which is illustrated in the earlier answer, the note on the back confirming it was printed by 21 AG’s Printing and Stationery Services. It shows over eighty signs attributed to RASC units. It is not explained where or how they were used but as the photo shows they probably appeared on vehicle doors and were approved at unit level.

The windmill sign shown is attributed to 710 (General Transport) Company. The other two shown are for 780 (Corps HQ Car) Coy, the boar’s head on a background of wartime RASC tactical marking colours suggesting they worked for 30 Corps and 39 (GT) Company – which obviously had a connection with 3rd Infantry Division"

Source: https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...226#post238226

They operated in Holland:

"A group photograph of some of the men in the unit taken at Platoon Headquarters, "De Elshof", Berkenhof, south of Hatert, Holland, at the end of Operation Market Garden, 23 September 1944. The men are: back row left to right, "Steve" Stephenson, Len Haslam, Vic Robbins (water dutyman), Cyril Lambert (the units oldest man) and George Drinkwater."


Source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205039833


One of the platoon's Sergeants is in fact buried in Leopoldsburg, Belgium:
"OWEN, Sjt. FRANCIS ENGLAND, T/5618131. 1680 Artillery Platoon, R.A.S.C. 10th September, 1944. Age 30. Son of Francis England Owen and Isabel Belinda Owen, of Combe Martin, Devon. IV. B. 1. "
Source: http://anguline.co.uk/Free/Leopoldsburg.pdf


Fought their way through Germany:
"Don-R Eddie Edmond (front of truck), Corporal Aubrey Harrin and Driver Ted Brinton (who was slightly injured ) immediately after the attack upon 1680 Platoon in Kleve (Cleve). See photograph HU 66247. Note the Fox's head formation sign on the rear of the lorry, indicating that 1680 Platoon were part of the 8th Armoured Brigade."

Source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205039836

"A photograph of Ackerstrasse looking north east towards Kleve (Cleve) town centre showing the debris and damage caused by an attack upon 1680 Platoon vehicles. "One of the tilt frames outlined in the distance is from the vehicle used as a guard-room where Guard Commander, Lance Corporal Buckle was killed. To the right of the two burnt out three tonners are the remains of the water truck (Driver Arthur Pratley) and a 15 cwt truck. The buildings on the far right were the officers billets, the cookhouse being on the near corner. The debris in the foreground is from the destroyed signals truck.""

Source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205039835


And ended the war in Berlin:
"Three German children stand next to the platoon HQ sign (the Windmill) the middle sign depicts the Berlin garrison roundel. Taken in Spandau, Berlin, summer 1945."

Source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205039841

"Vehicles of the unit parked on the Hakenfeldstrasse, Berlin, Summer 1945."

Source:https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205039842

[Keith Brooker]

The windmill sign shown is attributed to 710 (General Transport) Company.
In the 21st Army Group c.1945 containing coloured illustrations of the formation badges of RASC sub units within the Army Group.