New D-Day vehicles for the Canadian army

[peter simundson]

I have been working with the Unit vets for years and personally talked the ears off some Carrier guys. All the Vehicles issued and used on D Day were fresh from War Stores. They were a little reluctant to do this but were ordered to. Some of the later followup vehicles were Unit Resources but on D Day...New Vehicles.
Not only that the third Division had new weapons, Uniforms and web. The helmets were the Mk 3 style , the web was Brit. web with web "D"'s, and the uniforms were Canadian style British made. With the exception of the Brens the weapons were new Brit made stens and Enfields.

P Simundson

[Ed Storey]

Can the statement about the uniforms and equipment for the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division being issued new kit for the Normandy invasion be supported with primary source documentation? I do know that certain specific new 'invasion related' kit such as Mk III Helmets, Boots, Assault Jerkins and Lightweight Respirators were issued for the invasion, but to completely re-equip the whole division with clothing is new to me. I was at the event that was held by Bill Gregg and yes the vehicles were replaced because for the most part after several years of wear, tear, exercises and multiple drivers, the B vehicles at least were pretty clapped out. As well, the newer B vehicles were No. 13 cabs and it only makes sense to start the campaign with new B vehicles. In the case of the A vehicles, many were already new and they do not recieve the heavy useage that B vehicles do so I would doubt that they would all get replaced, although I am not sure what was done with the Universal Carriers.

Getting back to weapons, to be frank, it would not make sense to replace all of the small arms just for the sake of newness when they do not wear out as fast as mechanical transport. You also have to look at the 'big picture' as the cost in time and material to manufacture items and then ship them to the UK would mean that just replacing things to have new, in the case of uniforms and equipment, would not necessarily make sense. Anyway, if the uniform statement can be supported with documentation, then fine.

[derk derin]

Peter,
Do you have any info on when they began to produce the new vehicles and how long it took to build up the right amount of vehicles for the invasion?
Bill Gregg's book Canada's fighting vehicles was aparently copied from an original list of vehicles needed and picked for the invasion from what I understand.Were the pictures that were taken of the vehicles already produced and in England ready to use for D-Day or were the pictures a visual list of what to order and build for the planned invasion?

Ed,
I have been a collector of Canadian webbing and equipment for 25+ years now and have always wondered when the British equipment was first used by the Canadians.I can see battledress being readily available and issued as needed but who makes the decision to try new equipment like the MK 3 or 4 helmets,the battle jerkin and other items not normally issued to Canadian troops.
Derk.

[peter simundson]

Regarding the Uniforms. I have Invasion worn Uniforms. They are Canadian style (no outside buttons) and British made. The high boots were 3rd Div. Well known, as are the helmets. The webbing is British made and marked. Easily spotted by the Canvas D's. I have several sets of it all. Two were worn by the vets that gave it to me.
After the Invasion relaced material was from Canadian Stores.
And the invasion battledress had thad gas coating on it that hardened from the water.
Imagine coming ashore in a totally soaked Bd. uniform with all pouches and packs filled with water. What fun.

Simundson

[Ed Storey]

There are several questions and responses happening at the same time from this thread with regards to uniforms and I will attempt to add something to this.

When it comes to the design, manufacture and issue of clothing and equipment for the most part, Canadian uniform designs stemmed from the UK. Not everything, but if we look at in this case just BD, boots, web and helmets, the Canadian Army worn items that were designed in the UK. Generally this was because the Canadian Army was part of the British Empire in which the doctrine, tactics and equipment were all British, therefore you could in theory have British, Canadian and say Indian troops all fight side-by-side essentially using the same ‘stuff’, and fighting using the same methods.

Uniforms and equipment constantly evolve so at some point through testing and evaluation there would be a new design for a field uniform or a helmet, I have no documentary proof, but I am speculating that examples would have been sent to the various countries for trials and potentially adapting. In the case of Canada who would be manufacturing its much of its own clothing and equipment a decision would have to be made as to if the new item would be adopted and if so was there the budget and resources. All of this would have to be looked at in the overall scheme of Imperial defence and if you look at Canada during the Great War were we manufactured clothing and equipment that was not compatible with UK, the items had to be replaced once the army was in the field so the details of who would pay and how much stuff would have to be worked out. If Canada adopted a new item, then there is also the decision of how many and if the item will be made in Canada or purchased from the UK. All of this procurement is not taken lightly and there is more to it then the average collector knows and I do not profess to be a supply expert.

In the case of Mk III Helmets, it was the ‘new’ helmet and the decision would have to have been made as to if the whole Army was going to get this helmet, what would be done with the Mk II Helmets already in stock and who would make it. What you have is a decision to purchase a limited number of MK III Helmets from the UK, primarily for 3rd Division and to use up the stock and retain the Mk II for general issue. For sure someone was keeping track of the number of MK IIIs and Mk IV Helmets used by Canada and someone in the Canadian military would have stipulated who could or could not get the helmet and some sort of reckoning would have taken place at the end of the war; as we all know Canada did not adopt the Mk III and did not manufacture it.

Uniforms and web would go through the same process. Obviously in Canada, in the case of BD and web, the issue kit would be Canadian manufacture and you would take this kit with you when you sailed for Europe. Once in Europe, if something needed replacing, they the individual would take whatever were given from QM. Now Canada tried to make sure that the Canadians wore Canadian manufactured goods, especially in the case of BD which was of a better quality and looked a little different. But, if there were not Canadian items available in the supply system, then obviously British or whatever (could be Indian in Italy) would have to do. In the case of webbing, 1st and 2nd Divisions went to the UK in 1908 Pattern Web and replaced it with UK manufactured 1937 Pattern Web and common sense would dictate that you are not going to force two complete divisions to re-equip with Canadian made web at a latter date just so everyone had Canadian made. Obviously personnel coming into those formations from Canada would have Canadian made web. As items were replaced, you could potentially see a mix of UK and Canadian web and in fact this is common in sets obtained from Veterans.

Now the topic of uniforms and equipment for 3rd Division for Normandy, unless someone can come up with a document that proves that the whole of 3rd Division was issued new uniforms and equipment for Neptune, I tend to doubt it was done. As I stated, for B vehicles yes, it makes sense, but not uniforms. Specialist clothing for the invasion was issued to some of the sub-formations of the division, such as Mk III Helmets, boots and Assault Jerkins, but even this was not division wide. Yes, the BD was suppose to have been anti-gas treated, if this was division-wide, I have no idea.

As for having uniforms that landed at Normandy, fought at Vimy Ridge or took part in the Battle at Kap Yong, I tend to think that owning a uniform from any of these key battles is very wishful thinking on the part of the owner. Veterans, god love them, are wonderful people and they may tell you that they wore the uniform at such a key battle but you have to think, what are the chances of a person wearing, every day, the same uniform from June 1944 until May 1945 and then wearing it back to Canada? I can see having webbing, a helmet, a respirator or a razor that could well have landed at Normandy, but to have a uniform that not only survived 11 months of day-to-day wear but also the communal unit laundry system and the odd chance to exchange worn clothing for newer; boggles my very simple mind.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Ed makes some very valid points. Canada had a policy, accepted by the UK, that certain items were to be "of continuing Canadian supply". This list included clothing, vehicles, insignia and small arms. There were a few acceptable exceptions to this such as any No4T could be issued to a Canadian formation rather than issue only Long Branch-made examples.
For those who are not aware, the UK charged Canada for any issues of British kit. In the early days the Canadian Army paid rent for British vehicles and then, later, bought vehicles outright. In return, Canada charged the UK for CMP's bren guns, Sniper rifles, optics, etc...
This meant that both sides employed a shadow army of accountants who kept track of who owed whom how much. At various times Canada (who was always owed money by the Brits) made a grant to the UK. In fact, when the Mutual Aid Act was passed the very first grant was for a Billion dollars - which covered Britain's war costs for a year.

[peter simundson]

I operate a Museum for the Queens Own Rifles. In the Museum I have at least seven original sets of Battledress from WW2. The nicest one was invasion worn and given to me by the guy who wore it. On June 8th he was
winged in the head and sent back to England to recover. Two weeks later
when he was at his "girlfriends" the Provost (he got daily passes) picked him up and delivered him to base to return to his Unit. He was in civvies, was outfitted at base and RTU'd. He survived the war and picked up his Kit on the way home. It was hanging in the basement in the original bag, with helmet, when he gave it to me. Five years ago I picked up a Kit from a Sgt. MM winner. I wanted his MM but got two sets of Battledress. One he returned home in. It had the red lanyard, rank machine stitched on and about a dozen pleats on the back. A new Cdn made uniform. The other was a well worn, pants and tunic, that he wore on the invasion and through the war.
I also have the CO's tunic, trousers and web (camo'd with dark capo yet)
(Col. Steve Lett). The rest of the uniforms are WW2 but not invasion.
If you take the time to check out paybooks and message books you will find that the sgts and section commanders made a list of weapons issued to their troops. They dont have Canadian serial numbers. Although later in the war
Canadian Long Branch Numbers start turning up.
I deal with fact. Not Part 2 orders. Or coffee table books.
In the defence of history when I say Third Div. I refer to the invading troops. Not support troops or Att's and det's that came in later or on day 2.
More on the actual vehicles later
Simundson

[Ed Storey]

Now we have the full story, I wish you had provided those details earlier as you had me believing that you had some mythical BD uniform tht had travelled all through NW Europe.

The well-worn BD in the kit bag is interesting, but how do you know it was field used?

It is nice that you represent the QOR Museum, but to be frank, museums are some of the biggest offenders for glossing over the details, especially when it comes to material history. I asked you about your original earlier post, "Not only that the third Division had new weapons, Uniforms and web. The helmets were the Mk 3 style , the web was Brit. web with web "D"'s, and the uniforms were Canadian style British made. With the exception of the Brens the weapons were new Brit made stens and Enfields." Specifically if you had any primary source material to back up the statement or is this just a theory of yours?

I am glad you deal in more than just Part II Orders and coffee table books, so I will press you again to see if you have any primary source data to back up your statment? Nothing would impress me more if you could provide the QOR QM returns for Mk III Helmets or a written order from the QOR CO directing everyone in the regiment to draw new BD prior to the invasion.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by peter simundson

I deal with fact. Not Part 2 orders. Or coffee table books. Simundson

Wow. I have never been accused of that before.
All of my books are based on historical record and I would prefer to rely on that than on the 60+ year memory of a veteran. Further, any individual CO may order or condone changes to Orders but it is the study of these Orders that tells us what the Army's intent was. It is Part 2 Orders that are fact - not the reminiscences of a veteran or the provenance of a uniform. I respect your knowledge and experience but your sweeping statements about wholesale replacement of all categories of materiel is hard to swallow.
There is written support that all units, prior to embarkation, were to report shortfalls in their War Establishment. In all cases material was supplied at the embarkation point with British material - this included motorcycles, vehicles and smal arms and allowed for the replacement of material which was lost on the way to the embarkation point. Obviously the "Continuing Canadian Supply" policy was not observed in these cases.
I don't understand the comment about British-made Canadian uniforms. The reason the Brits were making their economy pattern was because of their shortage of wool. If they were to re-clothe Canadians they would either do it with stocks of Canadian BD or they would issue British pattern BD, not a Brit-made Canadian pattern - and in which colour, British or Canadian?
In any event, until I see documented evidence or other primary sources I will file this one as an interesting story.