Canada in Afghanistan

[Lang]

Having checked on this thread from time to time it occurs to me there must be a similar American forum with ten times the depressing list of casualties in Afghanistan. Add to that the British, Australians, Dutch, Belgians etc who are being killed or wounded daily.

I feel I am of average intelligence with a long interest in the military and follow world affairs very closely. Despite this I have NEVER seen or heard anyone from any nation explaining exactly what we doing there and what we are trying to achieve.

Political clap-trap about "improving the lives of the Afghan people" seems to be the sum total of the reasons for a continuous growing list of dead soldiers.

The recent highly talked-up elections with almost no elector turnout and now the totally expected corruption cries from the losers was the publicised justification for the slaughter of our soldiers for the last two years - a total failure.

Abysmal double standards are evident when the world's prime source of heroin could be totally eradicated in a few weeks but is left to grow so the farmers will not be influenced to turn to the Taliban after losing an income (they have only had in relatively recent years anyhow). The Americans and all of us partners should rightly be listing the ruined lives and miserable deaths of thousands of our people through the use of this "agricultural" crop as casualties of the war as well.

What military aims do we have other than to drive around until unlucky enough to be killed by a remotely fired explosive placed by an enemy who seldom gathers in numbers large enough to result in any decisive or even telling battle. I don't know, none of the Generals I have seen interviewed know, can the politicians please tell us.

The British were massacred in Afghanistan over several campaigns, the might of the entire Russian military effort could make no headway despite much more relaxed rules of engagement, restrictions or ethics than now restrict our troops.

Sure, Afghan life was not the best under the Taliban but Afghanistan is a shining light of peace and freedom compared to a long list of other countries. Who cares about the Congo and Angola where 6 million (yes the same number as the entire holocaust!) have died and continue to die. Rwanda - millions, Somalia - million etc etc.

Is there anyone on the forum who can tell me (and the rest of the world) EXACTLY why we are in Afghanistan and what are the exact military aims which justify the staggering cost and dismal casualty lists.

Lang

[Gordon Yeo]

Perhaps after the former experiances in the Congo, Rawanda and Somalia nobody wants to go play there again. Afganistan is still all new and exciting for Canada. However, maybe after we get home after 2011 we wont be so quick to go back again.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Lang..

Some time ago I read a report that seemed to address just that question and the writer alleged that the American oil industry had to establish a secure route to run a pipe line from the 'stan country's ,through Afghanistan and Pakistan to access the oil reserves of those country's...
After the fall of the Soviet Union,the 'stans got their "independence"and Big Oil was the first one in there to grease the wheels of the local chief stick...
With their war chests of cash the oil contracts and fields were soon tied in ,but no way to get the stuff to market..other than an oil pipeline through China or Russia..neither one a hot prospect..
Afghanistan and Pakistan is where they were going to build the pipeline to the seaport on the coast of Pakistan..
Why we are there ..I don't know..but where there is oil ..there is money and power..which can buy anything..including our boys lives..
2011 Is long enough ..and although I support our troops,(Having been one for 14 years)I am leery to support the politics of death and destruction of our way of life to try to change tribal society that has flourished,right of wrong ,for thousands of years..
Time they fixed it them selves..which they eventually will ..when the time is right..for them..not for us..
Rant over..
Off the box..

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Lang

Is there anyone on the forum who can tell me (and the rest of the world) EXACTLY why we are in Afghanistan and what are the exact military aims which justify the staggering cost and dismal casualty lists.
Lang

We're not over there fighting to support a tribal government, hence the elections, nor for Afghanistan's vast oil resources (they have none), we're there to prevent the country from being a breeding ground for Islam terrorists, present and future. Our presence there keeps the Taliban and Al Qaeda on their heels, preventing them from consolidating their power through terror and turning Afghanistan into a terrorist training camp on a nation-wide basis. Further, by being there it makes it difficult for the Mullahs to indoctrinate the next generation of Bin Laden "Jugend" into wanting to martyr themselves. It's unfortunate that there are those who, without the stomach for a prolonged struggle, would have us leave Afghanistan without a self supporting government that has some idea of human rights in place. Believe me, radical Islam not only has the stomach, it thrives on chaos, torture, and bloodshed. There is no appeasing the blood lust and hatred of the West by radical Islam...why is it so many forget the mistakes of the past? One doesn't have to look too far into history to see the failed policies of Appeasement. Unfortunately, way too many of our fine young men have to give their lives in this struggle, but I'm willing to bet that they are in Heaven right now looking down on us willing us to keep the faith and finish the job so that their sacrifice wasn't for nought. Derek.

[Lang]

Derek,

Thanks for that.

I think you are very optimistic to believe we can ever "get the job done" - to do so will require decades of involvement and huge numbers of garrison troops to keep any form of organised government and society on the "right" track.

We are not trying to get rid of a bad government (Hitler and numerous other dictators or juntas) in Afghanistan, we are trying to create a new society.

We have an even money shot in Iraq because Iraq had a relatively well educated well organised and functioning country under Hussein and all we had to to do was get rid of the evil to reveal the acceptable base system like we did in Germany and Japan in the 40's.

As for Afghanistan becoming the world's terrorist training ground - once we finish there we will have to follow them across the border to the other 'stans and even into our ally Pakistan (where they operate now in any case). We have to find some other way to to solve the Islam/West divide or our soldiers are going to keep being killed in Central Asia for the next hundred years.

I certainly don't know the answer and I don't think anyone else does but we sure have to come up with one.

Lang

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Lang

Derek,

Thanks for that.

I think you are very optimistic to believe we can ever "get the job done" - to do so will require decades of involvement and huge numbers of garrison troops to keep any form of organised government and society on the "right" track.

Lang

You're absolutely right. To have any chance of preventing Afghanistan, and many other countries from reverting to fundamentalist Islamic Theocracies, we have to accomplish three things: destroy Al Qaeda and the Taliban, not allow any more Moslem youth to be radicalized, and to send the one's who have been radicalized to Paradise at either our hands or theirs. My best guess is this will take at the bare minimum 2-3 generations. Do we have the will to achieve this? Absolutely not! But at least in the meantime by keeping the terrorists busy over there, they're not busy over here. Derek.

[Lang]

You're absolutely right. To have any chance of preventing Afghanistan, and many other countries from reverting to fundamentalist Islamic Theocracies, we have to accomplish three things: destroy Al Qaeda and the Taliban, not allow any more Moslem youth to be radicalized, and to send the one's who have been radicalized to Paradise at either our hands or theirs. My best guess is this will take at the bare minimum 2-3 generations. Do we have the will to achieve this? Absolutely not! But at least in the meantime by keeping the terrorists busy over there, they're not busy over here. Derek.[/QUOTE]

Derek,

The aim is Ok but the execution impossible with the current approach.

The Taliban is only a local problem and just a matter of a bad government that we have decided to replace. Their governing methods are unacceptable to many in the west (I think we should mind our own business and look at the many more pressing problems in the world). They are no threat to the west other than by association because they make available their country to Al Qaeda who are the real threat. As mentioned above Al Qaeda can just pack up their camels and move to another country.

Al Qaeda is not a formed body in the accepted sense but more of an association of like minded people (a club if you will) with a strong "committee", club training and club outings. They are spread throughout the world and almost impossible to pierce through the heart. At the moment we are just chopping off fingers and toes with a couple of arms in bigger kills but they grow back before the dust clears.

With this kind if enemy the only major defeat they will suffer is through smart intelligence not by force of arms. We are chasing smoke in Afghanistan while being used as targets by the Taliban (and let's face it, by local warlords who have absolutely no interest in Islamic progress, only their own power). We are being bloodied by the opposition cheer leaders while hardly laying a glove on the real opposing team.

We have to find out what is the motivation - not just to take out the west- but the real motivation of WHY they want to take out the west, why they want to radicalize their youth.

We have to convince the Islamic leaders that moderation is the best for everyone. We have to convince our people that that others have a right to conduct their own affairs, even with "civil rights" as our politically correct society sees them, reduced. We need to reduce the confrontations on both sides. We need to pull Israel into line and stop their provocative behaviour towards the Palestinians with the lack of "rights" we crow about, illegal settlements etc. Both sides have got to stop acting in the name of God (Yes, he is the same guy on both sides). We have to get rid of the missionary zeal to gather numbers to our particular religions and laws based on religion - we have as many laws arising from the church as the Moslems do and it is only in recent years that the Christian Church stopped slaughtering people in their millions in the name of God. Islam is a moderate religion, Christianity is a moderate religion but both churches (who have little to do with religion) are radical.

Unfortunately all this is a fairy story. Self interest, power and wealth will continue to drive men and nations into the forseeable future and young men will continue to die on the field of battle as they have for the past 50,000 years since the first humans to leave the Rift Valley killed the second humans to leave the Rift Valley because they wanted to use their waterhole.

I think we should tail this discussion off to the thread's real focus to record the efforts of the boys working and dying in Afghanistan, and elsewhere, at the behest of their governments as soldiers must. No matter what falsehoods, incompetence or greed caused their presence on the battlefield soldiering is an honourable profession.

Lang

[sapper740]

Lang, true words on all accounts.

Derek.

[Rob MacDonald]

We've lost 144 Canadian Soldiers to date on 'Peacekeeping' missions, but no-one feels compelled to keep score on THAT game.

You'll find that when the west (USA/UK/Canada) leaves those two theatres the young hot-heads will no longer flock there to kill their infidel but will turn their attention to the 'western homelands' - and then you won't be reading about a death in Gandamak but a subway bombing in Toronto.

I'd like to hope I'm wrong, but I'll bet I'm right.