FWD SU-COE Medium Artillery Tractor

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Does anyone have a good scan of one of these in original configuration? I've received an email which suggests one may have been found down in the U.S. (for sale) and I'd like to send this fellow something to compare his with.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Can't find a lot on the web. See http://www.armyvehicles.dk/fwdsucoe.htm for a picture of a FWD SU-COE 5-6-ton 4x4 Cargo Truck. The MAT had a body similar to the AEC Matador tractor. Some more FWD pictures can be found at http://mil-trucker.narod.ru/FWD.htm.

[Richard Farrant]

Geoff,
I was of the understanding that the MAT was sent to UK as chassis / cab and bodied here, with a similar body as the Matador. If that is so, then for one to turn up in the US, it would have returned from Europe at some point in time. It could of course, be the Cargo version. The British supplied SU-COE MAT had 5th gear blanked off as well.

Richard

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Jif.....
I have the parts and maintenance manuals for the FWD SU-COE ,TM 10-1377....
Not listed on my web site but I have them...
The HAR FWD parts manual is listed..

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
I was of the understanding that the MAT was sent to UK as chassis / cab and bodied here, with a similar body as the Matador. If that is so, then for one to turn up in the US, it would have returned from Europe at some point in time. It could of course, be the Cargo version.

Richard, you are right: the FWD SU-COE chassis were fitted with a MAT body in the UK. I agree it is indeed more likely that a Cargo version turned up in the US.

Any pics available of it, Geoff?

[Pete Ashby]

Geoff

any use?

Source: Central census B veh no's Chilwell, Picture Blue Print for victory; Gregg, Data book of wheeled Veh 1939 to 1945
I'm sure you have the picture but I've included it to try posting images you'll note it's Canadian numbered. Look at all the 11 and 12 cab CMP's in the background.

British census No's:
448706 to 4459205 on contract SM2018
4548936 to4549405 on contract SM2021

British wheeled data book notes:
British built body generally similar to AEC Matador tractor, exception is that two entrance doors are provided, one each side of the front

[Mark W. Tonner]

Geoff;

View 1 : FWD Medium Artillery Tractor, 4x4, 4-ton, Vehicle Code 100444-C-M.A.T.

View 2 : FWD Medium Artillery Tractor, 4x4, 4-ton, Vehicle Code 100444-C-M.A.T.

Cheers

[Pete Ashby]

Well done Mark,

Having made a complete arse of attaching the scan to my post I'll leave it to you. It was your scan '1' that I was trying to attach.
Having shown my ineptitude to the world once again I'll go away and see if I can get it right next time

Pete:

[Mark W. Tonner]

Pete & Geoff;

Sorry Pete, this was going to be my third post, I guess we have the same books in our libraries...........

Geoff: British Wheeled Data Book notes:

Cheers

[Richard Farrant]

Mark,
I notice the photos you posted are of steel bodied versions and one is shown with a Canadian number (CH*****) presumambly built for Canada. The British versions were wood and steel, the sketch from the Data Book appears to show planking.

Richard

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Richard;

The Canadian number on the vehicle is CH 4217674 and yes the bodies of the vehicles in view 1 & 2 are steel, which were manufactured by Dominion Truck Company, Kitchener, Ontario.

The picture from the Data Book is of a British built body which is generally similar to the A.E.C. Matador Medium Tractor body.


Image: FWD Model S.U. COE 4 Ton Chassis.

Cheers

[Oliver Missing]

Just to reanimate an old thread, here are some '46 WD numbers of LL shipments to UK and SU :



I wonder what they mean with "Prime Mover".
Any info welcome !
Oliver.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Oliver Missing
I wonder what they mean with "Prime Mover".
Any info welcome !

Oliver,

"Prime Mover" means it's intended use was artillery towing.
The British used the FWD SU-COE as a medium artillery tractor for the 5.5-inch Gun.

Regards,
Hanno


Source: http://www.armyvehicles.dk

[Oliver Missing]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Oliver,
"Prime Mover" means it's intended use was artillery towing.
The British used the FWD SU-COE as a medium artillery tractor for the 5.5-inch Gun.
Regards,
Hanno

Thanks for the reply, Hanno.
I was just wondering what kind of body was mounted on the chassis to make it a "prime mover".
Found the solution in"W&T" [body length :



So, the profile came out like this :

http://www.o5m6.de/FWD SU-COE_small.jpg

Regards, Oliver.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
"Prime Mover" means it's intended use was artillery towing.
The British used the FWD SU-COE as a medium artillery tractor for the 5.5-inch Gun.

Hanno,
I think that it is questionable that the Prime Mover is the Medium Artillery Tractor. The displayed publication on Oliver's message just says SU. If you go to Bart's original bible, on page 68, he lists the SU (G638) amongst a number of other makes of 5-6 ton trucks with short ballast bodies to tow semi-trailers. I would class a prime mover as a vehicle to tow semi or drawbar trailers. Further on, on page 83, the SU-COE MAT is shown less body and alongside is steel bodied cargo and if you look at the description it lists one role as "truck-tractor", which does sound a little like a prime mover.
There were also about 1300 FWD 4x4 tractors supplied to the British with Dominion 6 ton 2 wheel GS semi trailers, under contract SM/CA2420, maybe David has more info on this?

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
I think that it is questionable that the Prime Mover is the Medium Artillery Tractor.

Richard,

I said the intended role of the Prime Mover was artillery towing. I based this on the knowledge that the US "Truck, 6 ton, 6x6, prime mover" (Corbitt, White) and "Truck, 7½ ton, 6x6, prime mover" (Mack) were used for towing artillery.

Another vehicle which is referred to (but not designated as) a prime mover is the "Truck, 12 ton, 6x4, prime mover, M20" (Diamond T). This truck does fit your classification of a prime mover as a vehicle to tow semi or drawbar trailers.

I do not know if the FWD listed on the Lend-Lease shipments list is actually an SU or SU-COE. Maybe Oliver can tell us exactly which type(s) of FWD truck were shipped to the Soviet Union?

Regards,
Hanno

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra

I do not know if the FWD listed on the Lend-Lease shipments list is actually an SU or SU-COE. Maybe Oliver can tell us exactly which type(s) of FWD truck were shipped to the Soviet Union?

Hanno,
I reread the Lend-Lease list on Oliver's posting and realised it was for 2,000+ to the British Empire, that would of course, include Canada. Looking in "Canadas Fighting Vehicles", on page 143, is a FWD SU semi-trailer tractor with CL number on it, for pulling plant transporters. knew I had seen it somewhere!

Richard

[Oliver Missing]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Hanno,
I reread the Lend-Lease list on Oliver's posting and realised it was for 2,000+ to the British Empire, that would of course, include Canada. Looking in "Canadas Fighting Vehicles", on page 143, is a FWD SU semi-trailer tractor with CL number on it, for pulling plant transporters. knew I had seen it somewhere!
Richard

Hanno, Richard,
I'm fascinated how your discussion evolves.
I have nothing beyond the excerpt from the statistics, maybe my COE assumption is wrong.
Bart Vanderveen writes :
"In 1944 Ordnance ordered 1460 [FWD SU-COE] cargo trucks, followed by 2700 for the prime mover role."
That fits quite well with the LL numbers.
Never saw a conventional SU anyway.
Regards, Oliver.

[Snowtractor]

They were used by the telephone company to string the alcan highway. I have pics of cabs and chassis in a dump along the way also pics in Stan Cohens books. There is one n Yellowknie with a huge one way snow plow attached they used for making ice roads for years. Rustng away now though, but big truck even by todays standards.
Sean

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

There were also about 1300 FWD 4x4 tractors supplied to the British with Dominion 6 ton 2 wheel GS semi trailers, under contract SM/CA2420, maybe David has more info on this?

Yes there were four batches of Census Numbers, with four batches under the same contract with Dominion trailers.

Also the 'Radar Train'

CHEV/FWD FROM:
L 4688567 CHEV/FWD TO: 4688587
(CHEV.) SM 2828 LORRY 3 TON 4 X 4 G.L. MK III EQUIP. NOTE 2
CMP MODEL C.60L? 8443
In this batch were:

L 4688568 to 4688575; 4688575 to 4688580 and 4688584 to 4688587 and 4785291 to 4786090

"Contract SM 2828 CANADIAN FWD CONTRACT USP 12045
THEN CDLV 5812 AND 6051 [CANADA] AND SM 2828 [WD]
LORRY 3 TON 4 X 4 G.L. MK III EQUIP. 1942 MODEL HAR-01 3½ -TON"

NOTE 2: FOUR-WHEEL DRIVE AUTO COMPANY, CLINTONVILLE, WI THEN TO FOUR WHEEL DRIVE AUTO COMPANY LIMITED, KITCHENER, ONTARIO FOR GS BODYING


THIS WAS FOR THE 1943-SUPPLIED CANADIAN RADAR TRAIN: 1. FWD HAR-01 GS WITH GENERATOR SET + 5-TON 4-WHEELED TRAILER RADAR A/A NO.3 MK.1 OR “APF TRAILER” AND 2. FWD HAR-01 GS + 5-TON 4-WHEELED TRAILER RADAR A/A NO.4 MK.1 “P1 TRAILER”; 3. CHEVROLET C.60 [L?] WINCH TRUCK WITH CABLES. WAS THERE ALSO A C.15A GS TRUCK AS WELL IN THE “TRAIN”?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is a HAR Snowblower at Pearson's, Liverpool:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
I think that it is questionable that the Prime Mover is the Medium Artillery Tractor. The displayed publication on Oliver's message just says SU. If you go to Bart's original bible, on page 68, he lists the SU (G638) amongst a number of other makes of 5-6 ton trucks with short ballast bodies to tow semi-trailers. I would class a prime mover as a vehicle to tow semi or drawbar trailers. Further on, on page 83, the SU-COE MAT is shown less body and alongside is steel bodied cargo and if you look at the description it lists one role as "truck-tractor", which does sound a little like a prime mover.

Richard,

Had a closer look at both the 1969 and revised 1972 editions of Bart Vanderveen's The Observer's Fighting Vehicles Directory Word War II. Of the SU (with diesel engine, shorter wheelbase and GarWood winch behind the cab), only "85 were supplied to Britain, under Lend-Lease, in 1942".

The SU-COE came as a "Tractor Chassis, w/Winch", of which "many [were] supplied to UK and fitted with British Medium Artillery Tractor body (as AEC Matador). Similar chassis were equipped with augers for bomb digging; these had smaller tyres (dual rear)".

There also was a "Cargo" variant, which was "also used as tractor truck (smaller tyres, dual rear), snow-plough, etc." The Transporter, 16-ton, (Tractor) shown in Gregg's Canada's Fighting Vehicles Europe 1943-45 was based on the Cargo variant.

Based on these facts, I think we can assume the 500 "Cargo, FWD-SU" and 2,148 "Prime Mover, FWD-SU" supplied to the "British Empire" were FWD SU-COE's, in Cargo and Tractor Chassis variant respectively.

I wonder if the 85 diesel engined SU's, which were supplied to the UK according to Vanderveen, could actually have been 90 examples shipped to the USSR?

Further to Geoff's original query, I'd place my bet on a Cargo variant as it is located in the US - only a third of those ordered was supplied to the UK. Geoff, do you know if the survivor was fitted with a winch?

Regards,
Hanno

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Based on these facts, I think we can assume the 500 "Cargo, FWD-SU" and 2,148 "Prime Mover, FWD-SU" supplied to the "British Empire" were FWD SU-COE's, in Cargo and Tractor Chassis variant respectively.

I wonder if the 85 diesel engined SU's, which were supplied to the UK according to Vanderveen, could actually have been 90 examples shipped to the USSR?

Further to Geoff's original query, I'd place my bet on a Cargo variant as it is located in the US - only a third of those ordered was supplied to the UK. Geoff, do you know if the survivor was fitted with a winch?

Hanno,
I agree with you, but did note that in my original 1969 book the diesel engined tractor, is a model CU, its not a mistake because it is written on the front of the truck....had to use a magnifying glass to read.

Regarding one in the States. the US Corps of Engineers had another variation, same page of '69 book, a YU, with a different model Waukesha engine to the SU-COE. Probably fitted with winch as it was fitted with a derrick.

Richard

[Oliver Missing]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Hanno,
I agree with you, but did note that in my original 1969 book the diesel engined tractor, is a model CU, its not a mistake because it is written on the front of the truck....had to use a magnifying glass to read.
Regarding one in the States. the US Corps of Engineers had another variation, same page of '69 book, a YU, with a different model Waukesha engine to the SU-COE. Probably fitted with winch as it was fitted with a derrick.
Richard

Richard,
I, too, think it was a "SU" and not a "CU", although the Russians loved diesel engined trucks and Britain forwarded many LL trucks to Russia in order to meet the US truck delivery obligations of the Moscow protocol.
So, we got 2,348 SU-COE tractor chassis of which 2,148 were supplied to the Empire and upgraded to a MAT.
But what happened to the 90 chassis for the SU ?
Where they delivered "naked", could they have been used without any body ?
I guess we'll never know.
Oliver.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
the diesel engined tractor, is a model CU, its not a mistake because it is written on the front of the truck

Richard,

You're right - it's a CU, not SU. My typo, sorry...

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
The SU-COE came as a "Tractor Chassis, w/Winch", of which "many [were] supplied to UK and fitted with British Medium Artillery Tractor body (as AEC Matador)".

To prevent any misunderstandings, the MAT body was actually manufactured in Canada and shipped along with the SU-COE chassis/cabs, to be mated to the chassis upon reassembly in the UK.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

If anyone reading this thread is interested in buying a FWD SU-COE, there's one in The Netherlands. It is offered for sale by William Booy <wm.booy@planet.nl>, and according to his message on the Dutch Keep Them Rolling mailing list (dated 14 December 2003) details are:

"1945 FWD SU-COE, running, 2200 miles, ex-Belgian Fire Service, inside of cab with original paint, price €4500".

I have no connections with the seller, I'm just helping to find a good home for this truck.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
the US Corps of Engineers had another variation, same page of '69 book, a YU, with a different model Waukesha engine to the SU-COE. Probably fitted with winch as it was fitted with a derrick.

See a group of pictures of this Corps of Engineers FWD variant at the Library of Congress webiste.


Source: Fort Knox. Bridge construction trucks. Engineer units of the armored forces use special trucks like this for transporting and placing treadway bridges. Equipped with winches and crane members, these vehicles make quick work of laying bridge sections on pontoons. This particular truck is in use at Fort Knox, Kentucky, where soldiers are being trained in the use of armored equipment.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

FWD SU-COE in RAF(!?!) service.

[Les Freathy]

Hanno 51 motor transport co RAF used a small number during the early years of there formation. Attached is a photo of the FWD with the British built body that Richard has mentioned several times
cheers
Les