Looking for Canadian M151A2 Pictures....

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Mike and I discussed at length the number of these that were painted in the 2 Color, Black and Green Cam Pattern. My goal is to project this little rig in the most likely state it would have been in, so this may be the route i'll go.

Here's an example (click on the picture for a large size image):



As Rob pointed out, this must be an example of the 3-colour camouflage pattern being distorted in the chain of command to a 2-colour cam job. Anyway, it gives you a good idea of the M151A2 in Canadian service and is copied here form Verlinden's book as a soure of inspiration. I have looked high and low, but I could not find other pics of M151A2's in Canadian service than those shown here (or in the links).

Regards,
Hanno

Originally Posted by rob love

I would strongly recommend using the cam pattern as shown and attempting to get the 3 colours as close as possible. Any "2 colour" cam jobs were simply a failure in the chain at either getting the proper information or paint to the users level. I have also seen a few pieces in museums where the restorer's just painted away, without researching the proper paint schemes. It does the history of the vehicles a dis-service IMHO.

[Scott Bentley]

I know in my case paint is probably a long time off yet as I don't have the facilities here to start this, but as they say, "The Devil is in the details", which is why i'm trying to hoard info and research now so everything goes fairly smooth later on.

When it comes to the paint scheme its tricky. I understand where Rob is coming from with what is correct, but from everything i've seen so far, more often than not, they were not correct. My goal is to produce a "While in Service" rather than an "As Issued" resto, so its a tough call for me.

At the end of the day, I don't want someone who spent a significant part of their career in one of these coming up to me asking why its painted the way it is. My decision is no where close to being final.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

At the end of the day, I don't want someone who spent a significant part of their career in one of these coming up to me asking why its painted the way it is. My decision is no where close to being final.

Scotty,

And at the end of the day, it´s your truck, so you can paint and mark it up in the way you feel is most appropriate. Judging by what you have written here alone, no-one can claim you did not do you homework and slapped on the first tin of army green paint you came across.

H.

[Ed Storey]

Last time I checked I was!

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Last time I checked I was!

I thought it might be the case. I've had a few quick chats with Mr Storey over the years. Hes' been very active with the Regt over the years. Sort of a Regt Grand Dad

[maple_leaf_eh]

My Militia unit (Sherbrooke Hussars) was issued two M151 Jeeps. We called from "Seventy-Four Pattern Jeeps", to differentiate from the "Sixty-Seven Pattern Jeeps" we had in abundance. Where the name Mutt came from is beyond me. Probably some ad copy writer's nickname that appeared on a pamphlet another writer kept and repeated. So in your case, you don't have an M151A2 or a Mutt. Your Jeep is a 74-Pattern.

Your CFR may be repeated with decals under the paint on the dash.

The 74-Pattern was a soft ride compared to the 67-Pattern and easier to get up on two wheels. We never rolled any of our while I was in, but there were more accidents with the 67-Patterns. We all thought the big roll cage was an abomination when we saw it for the first time. The front seat is adjustable which is a good thing. The hood flat for sitting a two-burner stove on or sleeping or giving orders, but not for copying map traces. Too many ridges in the sheet metal. The four-wheel independant suspension meant they were easier to bottom out cross country. The glove box and tool kit weren't very handy as I remember. There isn't a lip around the rear cargo area, so stuff could slide out more easily. Having the tarp and side curtains on was good thing to not lose stuff.

Thanks Rob for posting the cam' painting diagram and paint codes. They will come in handy for my 67-Pattern.

[rob love]

There were 3 names kicking around for the M151A2s out in this neck of the woods. 74 pattern jeep was one of them. The other two were "disposable jeep" (since many guys thought that the Americans just threw them away when they broke them) and also rollover jeep, for obvious reasons.

The term mutt was a US acronym for Military Truck, Utility Tactical.

My old alma matta (the FGH) had 3 of the M151A2s for the officers in HQ, and the fighting troops all used the M38A1 cdn2 and 3. While the M151s were better suited for highway use, the did not have great gearing for cross country work. The sheet metal on them was also not heavy enough to support the GPMG swing arm mount, although I did see one of these mounts on a M151 when I did a short stint in Gagetown back in 80.

The M38A1s and the M151s both were subject to rollover when put into a full turn at speeds of around 25 or 30 mph. The difference was that on a M38A1 it took almost 3 turns of the steering wheel to get there, while an M151 could do it in 1-1/2 turns. Also, the suspension of the M151 did not give the driver the feel of just how fast he was turning.

I have owned a number of M38A1s over the years, and also had an uncut M151A2 for about 10 years. Quite frankly, the M151A2 sucked when trying to climb a sand dune. On the other hand, the engine was far superior to the Willys F head. I did not like the transmission on the M151s (weak) nor the 12 universal joints on the prop and axle shafts.

[Ed Storey]

The official nomenclature for the Canadian used (excluding the US supplied UN and ICCS vehicles) post-Second War 'Jeeps' was

M38CDN

M38A1CDN1
M38A1CDN2
M38A1CDN3

M151A2

Iltis

The MUTT portion of the US M151A2 MUTT designation means Military Utility Tactical Truck.

Here are a couple of scans of original Canadian manuals that show the official designation. I have yet to find any primary source documentation that refers to the Canadian Jeeps by 'Pattern' although if there is something out there I would like to see it. The CFR number does start with a two-digit year prefix which does indicate the year the vehicle was taken into service, but is not a 'pattern' indicator.

[rob love]

The terms "67 pattern, 74 pattern " etc were cdn nicknames for the jeeps, and not official. But their use was widespread. I think I may have some messages around where they were referred to as such, but certainly not in any publication.

By the way, I don't think the term M38A1 CDN1 was used either, but rather simply M38A1CDN, since at the time they would not have known that we would be making further purchases of this pattern vehicle (with some improvements).

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

The terms "67 pattern, 74 pattern " etc were cdn nicknames for the jeeps, and not official. But their use was widespread. I think I may have some messages around where they were referred to as such, but certainly not in any publication.

By the way, I don't think the term M38A1 CDN1 was used either, but rather simply M38A1CDN, since at the time they would not have known that we would be making further purchases of this pattern vehicle (with some improvements).

I completely agree with you on this.

Generally everything starts its life "even" so to speak. I just think its interesting how the M38A1 was dubbed CDN, CDN2.... Rather than M38A1, M38A2.... as the A1, generally means "Amendment 1" and so on and so forth. The M38A1 is significantly different from the M38, enough one could argue, to have gotten a different "M" number all together, rather than just an amendment number.

The term "Pattern" is a generally excepted way of differentiating the generation of all sorts of "Army" equipment not just vehicles. In fact its almost the preference it seems sometimes.

Its kind of like referring to vehicles by their "Class"...
Walk up to any Soldier and ask him what an M35 Truck is, and the response could be anything. Most have no idea that its a 2.5ton MLVW unless they were bored enough to read the data plates while co-driving in one. Sames goes for my old M38A1 CDN2. When I told buddies I used to own an M38A1, they looked at me as if I had a toaster on my head. When I called it a 67 Pattern Jeep, the light came on.

When it comes to weapons, thats a whole other ball of wax

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Here are a couple of scans of original Canadian manuals that show the official designation. I have yet to find any primary source documentation that refers to the Canadian Jeeps by 'Pattern' although if there is something out there I would like to see it.

And here's the 1971 operator's manual for the Truck, Utility: 1/4 ton, 4x4:


But not until one looks inside they find out it's the manual for the M151-series truck!


H.

[rob love]

There were a few different DND operators manual for this truck, but the one you show was the most confusing. It showed all 3 models of the M151s, along with a bunch of variants, and of course had the french translations in it so the book was twice the size it needed to be.

Back in those days, it was always nice when the french side of a manual was in the back half of the book. You could undo the binder and remove those pages, thus lightening you overall bookweight by more than half. Eventuall I think the DND caught on to this and started printing the pages side by side or even with a Englsh column and a french column next to it on the same page.

The other odd part of the books back then were the empty pages with "this page intentionally blank" on them.

[cmp truck]

Hello,
I have some photos of the M15 in Moose Jaw sitting in front of the armoury.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by cmp truck

I have some photos of the M15 in Moose Jaw sitting in front of the armoury.

I assembled that Jeep. The body tub was one that was written off in Winnipeg, and cut into 4 sections if I remember correctly. I welded it back together and installed various components off some of the 30 M151A2s I bought out of Shilo back in the 80s. That jeep is reasonably complete, although most of the brakelines were cut from back when I was removing the suspensions. I used to strip a MUTT bare in 4 hours. On a good day, I would get 3 and a half of them done.

I would love to see photos of that one. I never did get a photo of any of my work from that collection. Several of the pieces there were from my collection, and many others in that display were my work.

[Eric B]

Hello

After an extensive search i have found the proper CDN Camo paint.

From the Canadian Govt Specifications Board ,manual 1-GP-12 and using the DND Camo pattern the proper colours are

Olive Green 503-321 (Olive Drab) NSN8010-21-870-7533
Green 503-319 (pea/light green) NSN8010-21-576-2558 (This is not to be confused with the earlier 503-319 from 1957,which was much darker)
Black 512-301 NSN8010-21-576-1987

I tried searching for the equivalent in the currently used Federal Standards (US) which replaced the CDN Specifications in 1991.
There are no crossover references and the CDN Govt was unable to provide any help.

I also contacted all of the paint manufactureres who are named on my original cans, no help there except for PPG who wishes to see my paint samples to look up their current stock by scanning. (Don't think it will be there though, but will try).

Camo paints from the US are cheaper and are close, but i have noticed that there is indeed a difference.

Fortunetly i had an original can of Olive Drab 503-321, and a can of green 512-319, (which i had made by mistake over 15 years ago and did not know what it was), i painted samples and had scanned.

If you go the automotive paint route you will be paying big dollars and will have to add a flattener. This will also be in acrylic paint as Oil based automotive paints in Canada are being phased out.

If you go by direct application industrial paint, which is oil, it comes already flat and is aprox $85.00 a gallon.

Clive Law of Service Publications will be the first to have his M38A1 CDN painted with the new paint by fellow collector Don Dingwall.

The paint samples seem to have a nice contrast with each other and the colours work nicer together than the faded original samples. As on my M151 A2 or my M38A1. (Which explains why we chose that colour to begin with.)
The faded look just does not give it justice.

Based on the outcome we will post the data and hopefully a photo of the finished product so that everybody will have access to these unique CDN colours.

Stay tuned... I know there are already two others locally waiting in line for these paints including myself.

I also have the info on the two shades of CDN gloss green available.
I will check if these are also available in the direct application paints. One is greener and the other one darker than the US shades currently available.

503-121 Olive Green NSN8010-21-898-1723
This is the gloss version of the 503-321 in the camo.

Will have to compare the other sample to my Specs book for the proper number when i get it back.

Thanks

Eric Ottawa

[rob love]

Way to go Eric. It would be nice if the codes were available to be made up in any location.

A couple days back I was in a Kingston Ontario surplus store and thought I had hit paydirt when I saw a can and a case of two cans of Cdn olive drab sitting on the floor for sale. On closer inspection I realized the cans were the non skid paint which would be applied to the top of fenders or onto the tailgates of the trucks. We used to filter the pebbles out of this paint back when it was hard to find the olive drab. I would have bought them, but unfortunately I was flying home, and didn't have any way of getting them home.

[greg anderson (RIP)]

Hi- having restored 3or 4 ex army vehicles in my time in my opinion it is not necessary to sandblast -I would prefer a good wire brushing -what is left will probably be as good as anything you will put over it -also these were not Cadillacs so a prefect finish is probably out of place -I would suggest you use a two part primer and put the finish coat on within a couple of days or you should sand the primer - for the floor inside I used the truck box liner stuff with the paint so it is not noticeable but it stands up -I made a rotissery for my mutt which hooks to my hoist so I was able to roll it anound by myself -saved a lot of trouble -for a finish underneath I used Can Tire black tarry spray cans -I store the mutt in a shed so I hope it will tast forever-we are blessed here with back roads to drive these things -a necessity for full enjoyment - Greg

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by greg anderson

Hi- having restored 3or 4 ex army vehicles in my time in my opinion it is not necessary to sandblast -I would prefer a good wire brushing -what is left will probably be as good as anything you will put over it -also these were not Cadillacs so a prefect finish is probably out of place -I would suggest you use a two part primer and put the finish coat on within a couple of days or you should sand the primer - for the floor inside I used the truck box liner stuff with the paint so it is not noticeable but it stands up -I made a rotissery for my mutt which hooks to my hoist so I was able to roll it anound by myself -saved a lot of trouble -for a finish underneath I used Can Tire black tarry spray cans -I store the mutt in a shed so I hope it will tast forever-we are blessed here with back roads to drive these things -a necessity for full enjoyment - Greg

Hi Greg,

I have to agree, after a long thought about it, i've decieded against Sand Blasting this thing, and rather just lightly rough it up and paint it again. The only rust issues are easy to fix, and won't require drastic measures. Its never going to be a show winner resto, so taking it down to the bare metal would just accentuate its battle scars even more.

I managed to get mine up on 4 x 10 Ton Jack Stands so I can almost crouch under it now. Not too bad for working on it underneath, but still not as good as the old MUTT Kabob.

For the Tub Floors i'm thinking about brushing them down and doing the whole POR-15 process on it. I've seen others that have done it in the past on Jeep Frames etc, and it seems pretty sturdy and long lasting. Not sure about the underside yet. It still has most of the Ziebart Coating left on it, and although its protected it well, it looks like complete crap. Alot of dirt and grime is stuck to it. I'm going to try and at least get it cleaned up and degreased as best I can and re-assess.

What are the opinions on using JB Weld for very minor cosmetic touch ups? The sides where the Demil has been repaired might need a little bit of finessing and i'm not a fan a fan of Bondo.

[Scott Bentley]

Just a little photo update of where i'm at these days. I've got most of the nasty Body Work issues fixed now. Keeping in mind this is not a thorough resto right now, but an effort to get it sound enough for a Safety Inspection so it can be moved under its own power.

The paint was/is a bit of a drama. It had to be painted in order to at least look "Safe" and complete, and I didn't have the time or facilities to source correct paint and properly paint it. In addition, there may be some more body finessing later on, so it would be a collossal waste of expensive paint to do so now. So in the mean time it gets Canadian Tire OD and Flat Black in the same overall pattern as before. I started hitting the spots that i'm done working on, doesn't look too too bad.

So, i'm getting very close to starting to put it all back together. We were aiming for a top-less New Years Day drive to Tim Hortons, but that would require a small miracle in spare time....









Lastly, ive been going through all of the Drilled Holes in the Body of this thing trying to figure out what was where regarding Comms and other Bits. Thanks to Eric B and Andy H, i've got the layout for what Comms Installations were in it. That covers a ton of holes. But there are a couple more that are bugging the hell out of me. On the Pass. Side Inner Rear Fenderwell, there are 2 Holes. Every single CDN 151 I have seen has these, but i've never found out what was attached. Anyone?

[Scott Bentley]

Turns out that these 2 offending holes were left over from a C-2299 Comms Box. Andy H from out west has been gracious enough to send me one and some other bits to help get my RT-524 Installation together. Down the road i'll look at either a second RT-524 or a 77 Set in a 2060 Tray, as all the Cabling and Switching will be ready to basically bolt it down and plug it in.

Does anyone have an SMG Mount and an Ansul Fire Extinguisher Bracket kicking around that they'd like to trade for some M-Series parts? I looked around at work, but came up empty. These are the only bits I need now to finish filling all of the holes.

Scotty

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Good to revive this thread. A good opportunity to list my web page on Canadian M151 series, as I moved it since orginally published on geocities.com in 2002

http://www.mapleleafup.nl/fordm151/m151cdn.htm

I'd like to see an M151A1 restored in ICCS colours one day.

Enjoy,
Hanno

M151Cdn_Vietnam73.jpg VNC73-362.jpg vnc73-423b.jpg

[Col Tigwell]

Have you thought of soda washing all the painted bodies.

It is really taking off down here and you have little if any problems, and the metal finish is not impacted.

just a thought

regards

Col

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Col Tigwell

Have you thought of soda washing all the painted bodies.

It is really taking off down here and you have little if any problems, and the metal finish is not impacted.

just a thought

regards

Col

I was watching Diamondjim's Thread on the G503. He Soda blasted a nice A2. It turned out real nice and wasn't harmful to delicate sheet metal.

Although I just went with a simple re-hash for now, its not out of the question if time, space and $$ line up in the future.

Thanks

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's an example (click on the picture for a large size image):



As Rob pointed out, this must be an example of the 3-colour camouflage pattern being distorted in the chain of command to a 2-colour cam job. Anyway, it gives you a good idea of the M151A2 in Canadian service and is copied here form Verlinden's book as a soure of inspiration. I have looked high and low, but I could not find other pics of M151A2's in Canadian service than those shown here (or in the links).

Hanno
I see three colors in the cam job shown in your illustration. The olive drab is on the front cowl as it should be, and the forest green is at the rear half of the driver's opening. Text book cam job (on the side anyway).

[Ed Storey]

Here is an image of an M151A2 leading the division roll-past during Exercise RV81.

[Scott Bentley]

Thanks again Ed.. Much appreciated. Any relation to Ralph?

Rob, I was reading some of your older posts about the paint colors. Were you able to find a source in Canada at a reasonable price? I see Willys Acres sells paint, and is willing to bring in other codes other than the WWII stuff. Anyone ever bought those paint codes from him?

[rob love]

Scotty
For the black I spray on tremclad flat back reduced with paint thinner. For the olive drab I have been using one of the shades from Rapco, which sells the Gillespie brand of paint. I think it was 33070 I was using, but I would have to confirm this. The paint chart on this site: http://hedgehoghollow.com/buzz/Colou.../army_clr.html gives 34082 as the closest but poor match. I think the 34052 would come close to a substitute for the flat green colour, although the cross ref chart gives 34079 as a direct replacement.
I order my paint from RAPCO (4 gallons at a time) and have it delivered to a border shipping service. It is about an hours drive to go pick it up, but when you consider that by the time I get the paint home I only have about $45 into each gallon, the extra time is worth it. Rapco's paint is also fresh. I bought some paint from a source in Winnipeg only to find that it was about 5 years old and had possibly been frozen.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

I see three colors in the cam job shown in your illustration. The olive drab is on the front cowl as it should be, and the forest green is at the rear half of the driver's opening. Text book cam job (on the side anyway).

Rob,

Thanks for pointing this out! Shows how easy it is to mistake a 3-colour for a 2-colour camouflage job.

Had a close look at the cam pattern for the Cdn 1/4 ton vehicles. From this I deduct left and right sides were supposed to have the same pattern, right?

Thanks,
Hanno

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Rob,

Thanks for pointing this out! Shows how easy it is to mistake a 3-colour for a 2-colour camouflage job.

Had a close look at the cam pattern for the Cdn 1/4 ton vehicles. From this I deduct left and right sides were supposed to have the same pattern, right?

Thanks,
Hanno

Left and right were indeed mirror images of each other.

[mike mckinley]

here are a few pics of an ex cdn a2 that was on ebay a few years ago. the one with the trailer attached was for sale locally for way too much quid. it was fairly rust free and sported the paint job it left gagetown with.