portee crew

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Don't know if this helps, but the standard 'gun detachment' for the 2pdr and 17pdr A/T guns were:

2pdr A/T gun: (Total: 5 man detachment)

Number 1 - gun commander
Number 2 - loader
Number 3 - layer
Number 4 - ammunition number
Number 5 - ammunition number

Seating on a 2pdr 'portee':

1 and 5 beside the driver (5 nearest the driver)
3 on the gun seat
2 on the near side rear seat
4 on the offside rear seat

17pdr A/T gun (towed): (Total: 7 man detachment)

Hi Mark, this certainly helps, but also raises a few questions:
- Wouldn't the driver double as the no.4 or 5 ammunition number?
- With such large detachments, a gun and ammunition to be carried on or behind a 101" wheelbase tractor, could it be these operated in tandem with a GS truck acting as an ammunition carrier? This truck could then seat a few of the gun detachment as well.

Thanks,
Hanno

[Gunner]

Hi Hanno et al.:

I'm glad that folks picked up on Mark's hint that a gun has a detachment not a crew. This comes form the artillery tradition that two guns made up a section thus one gun would be 'detached' from the section if deployed apart. Over time the tradition became entrenched. Tanks have crews as tankers draw many of their terms from the Navy due to the first tanks being His Majesty's Land Ships. (Turret, cupola, glacis, hull, etc, etc).

The current practice in most artillery is to have the driver act as an ammunition number when he isn't caring for the tractor. All artillery drivers in Canada are also qualified "Layers".

During the 40's the driver was frequently not qualified as a Layer and may have assisted with the ammo, however, the needs of the tractor came first for him. The less reliable vehicles of the time required more detailed care than modern machines do, camouflage, sentry duty in the wagon lines, etc, ate up the drivers' time.

In Canada, the current detachment for a 105mm field howitzer weighing about 2.5 tons is seven Gunners all qualified 'layer' and two qualified 'detachment commander'. At least one is qualfied 'driver, artillery, towed' but you can't get to Det Comd without being a driver so there are usually three qualified drivers (the designated driver, the Det 2 I/C and the Det Comd:

1- Detachment Commander, Sgt
2- Layer, Gnr/Bdr
3- Gunner, Gnr/Bdr
4- Ammunition and comms, Gnr/Bdr
5- Ammunition and sighting systems (aiming posts, etc), Gnr/Bdr
6- Driver, Bdr
7- Det 2 I/C, MBdr

(Canada no longer has L/Bdr. MBdr Canada = Bdr UK)

The seven man detachment allows for sufficient pers to rotate all through sleep and sentry duties. The minimum detachment for safe firing (not handling) of the gun is four. Seven can barely move the gun in mud or snow and frequently, the Bty Sgt Maj (BSM) will order a gun double manned to extract it from the mud or snow for hooking in.

The 17 pr ATk is comparable in weight and size to the 105mm howitzer so I expect that a detailed look in my gun drill manuals (far away back home) would vindicate Mark.

As far as a second ("limber") vehicle is concerned such was not the case. The Commonwealth artillery clung to the artillery trailer (sometimes called a limber) because the gun tractors were crowded. Doctrinally we deployed the gun with its ammo trailer and sent the tractors to the "Wagon Lines". (Still do depending on the tactical situation). Each troop of four guns had two limber vehicles which towed four ammo trailers between them. This gave each gun two trailers' worth of ammo and allowed for one trailer to be rotated back to the ammo point for refilling. The limbers could carry some extra troops but normally just two (driver and mate) who worked for the Troop Sgt Maj (TSM) and were part of the ammunition column ultimately under the BSM.

Late in the war we started experimenting with 6X6 field artillery tractors that would carry enough ammo to eliminate the trailer. The trailers have clung well, though and in a number of countries are still in sevice.

Some modern equipment with very large ammo (M109, ADATs etc ) have limber vehicles (M548 and/or 10 tonner respectively) to carry the ammo that cannot fit on the gun or launcher. These limbers frequently have specialised ammo handling equipment such as cranes and fork lifts. These limbers come directly under the Det Comd's control.



Hope this helps!

Meltin' Mike in Ghana