Armoured Carrier, Wheeled - Indian Pattern

[R Mark Davies]

Hi Gents,

I'm looking into the India Pattern Armoured Carriers (ACV-IP) used by the Indian & Commonwealth Forces. As I understand it, CMP chassis were sent to India, where they were fitted with armoured bodies in Indian workshops.

The Mk II and IIa are fairly well documented and these were basically a turretless armoured car - rather like a large Dingo, with Bren and Boys armament and a crew of three - mainly used as a Light Recce or Liaison Car, as well as an OP vehicle.

However, the Mk I seems to be very difficult to track down. From Indian cavalry organisations, it was clearly used as a light APC in lieu of the Universal Carrier in Recce Regiments. George Forty claims it was based on the experimental Guy Wheeled Carrier. He also states that the appearance varied depending on which workshop did the modifications.

I have a photo of the Guy Wheeled Carrier, but I can't find any photos or plans of the Mk I IP Carrier. Are the above comments correct? Was it basically a wheeled Universal-type troop/weapon carrier? Can anyone help?

Mark

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Mark,

The India Pattern Armoured Carriers are often referred to as "Carrier, Wheeled, 4x4 (Indian Pattern)" or "Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, Indian Pattern". Best source of info I know is Wheels & Tracks issue no.41; also check the following threads on the Old Forum:

• Carrier, Wheeled, 4x4 (Indian Pattern)
• Wheeled Armoured Carrier in Afghanistan

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[R Mark Davies]

Great pictures, Hanno! The Mk IV Carrier (the Afghan one) is interesting - it looks a lot like the original Guy Carrier.

Mark

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by R Mark Davies
The Mk IV Carrier (the Afghan one) is interesting - it looks a lot like the original Guy Carrier.

Mark, yes, it does, doesn't it

Here's a three-quarter rear view of the Guy Wheeled Carrier: http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/tanks/gb/bil/guy/wc.htm

The Indian Pattern Wheeled Carrier is discussed in the thread "Revised 1942 S/M Contracts Listing" as well.

Cheers, Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

See some interestings film stills of Indian Pattern Armoured Wheelded Carriers in the thread "LRGD indian units (4 pics) strange vehicle help !" at the Allied WWII AFV Discussion Group.

http://imagen.britishpathe.com/scrip...00000134&sif=0

The stills come from film 1815.15 "INDIAN L.R.D.G. UNIT 1943" at the British Pathé site.

Regards,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
also check the following threads on the Old Forum:

• Carrier, Wheeled, 4x4 (Indian Pattern)
• Wheeled Armoured Carrier in Afghanistan

I've noticed some of the threads on the old forum have disappeared. The second one is gone already, so I'm copying the first one here before it gets lost as well:

Carrier, Wheeled, 4x4 (Indian Pattern)
April 13 2002 at 4:46 PM Hanno Spoelstra

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See the American Memory from the Library of Congress site for some fascinating wartime pictures. The search for "India Armoured Car" gave the following results:


8b05878r.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8b0500...0/8b05878r.jpg
"Combat car in India. A newly completed armored combat car going through a rigid final test somewhere in India. The armored plate is put on the chasis in India. Lend-lease materials and equipment play a vital part in the manufacture of these cars."

8d43560r.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8d4300...0/8d43560r.jpg
"United States "lend-lease" program in eastern India. An American "Do-All" machine saws armor plate for use in combat cars at an Indian factory. Lend-lease materials are essential in the manufacture of this super-tough steel."

8d43539r.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8d4300...0/8d43539r.jpg
"United States "lend-lease" program in eastern India. A newly completed combat car on the testing ground "somewhere in India." The armor plate is put on the chassis in India. Lend-lease materials and equipment play a vital part in the manufacture of these cars."

8d43574r.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8d4300...0/8d43574r.jpg
"United States "lend-lease" program in eastern India. An Indian workman, using an American welder which was supplied under lend-lease, welds an armor plate on a nearly completed combat car."

[Alex van de Wetering]

I came across this picture in the Dutch Army photo archive....no idea if it has been posted on the forum before, but better safe than sorry.

source: http://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/nl...d/pantserwagen

Dutch East Indies 1947.

Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I came across this picture in the Dutch Army photo archive....no idea if it has been posted on the forum before, but better safe than sorry.

Alex,

It did ring a bell so I had a search for it. Found it in the thread armoured vehicle query, which has more pictures of these types of carrier in the NEI.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Wheeled Armoured Carrier assembly line: "fit floor plate and floors" station (IWM IND 517)

IWM (IND 517).jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

It did ring a bell so I had a search for it. Found it in the thread armoured vehicle query, which has more pictures of these types of carrier in the NEI.

That thread has gone missing, alas. I posted this picture, of which a much better quality scan has now been made available in the Dutch National Archives.

There are two Wheeled Carriers, both of which have the typical Indian Army census numbers of which the /|\ has been supplanted by a Dutch flag. They are following a Universal Carrier and what may be a Humfox leading the column.

Beschrijving: Dr. C.P.M. Romme (in licht overhemd). Zit op een pantserwagen, onderdeel van een colonne over de "dodenweg" van Medan naar Belawan
Datum: 2 februari 1947

NL-HaNA_2.24.04.03_0_145-2-4_resized.jpg
Source: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/8e5151...f-c6c68ae1fe61

[Hanno Spoelstra]

"1946 India - Soldiers & Daimler Dingo (sic) with Wire cage roof #1"
393060134180.jpg
Source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/393060134180


"1946 India - Soldiers & Daimler Dingo (sic) with Wire cage roof #2"
393060127604.jpg
Source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/393060127604

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

There are two Wheeled Carriers, both of which have the typical Indian Army census numbers of which the /|\ has been supplanted by a Dutch flag. They are following a Universal Carrier and what may be a Humfox leading the column.

These photos show Dr. C.P.M. Romme, a Dutch politician (in the light shirt) sitting on a Wheeled Armoured Carrier, part of a column on the "death road" from Medan to Belawan, Indonesia.
Apparently there was not a high risk of attacks on that day, otherwise Romme would have travelled under armour.
Date: 2 February 1947

NL-HaNA_2.24.04.03_0_145-2-4-klein.jpg

NL-HaNA_2.24.04.03_0_146-1-2-klein.jpg NL-HaNA_2.24.04.03_0_145-2-6-klein.jpg

Source: http://hdl.handle.net/10648/8e515100...f-c6c68ae1fe61 | http://hdl.handle.net/10648/96adc277...b-a9e7744049c1 | http://hdl.handle.net/10648/38b89ede...0-08127ab354c3

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I came across this picture in the Dutch Army photo archive....no idea if it has been posted on the forum before, but better safe than sorry.

source: http://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/nl...d/pantserwagen

Dutch East Indies 1947.

Here's another shot of the same type of wheeled carrier (may even be the same example). Recently unearthed by Keith Webb from the Netherlands National Archives:

125083554_10215855254808664_3473608992703387232_o.jpg

Collection / Archive Fotocollectie Dienst voor Legercontacten Indonesië
Report / Series [DLC] Bezoek van professor Romme aan Medan
Description Dr. C.P.M. Romme (in licht overhemd) maakt tocht langs de "dodenweg" van Medan naar Belawan
Date 2 februari 1947
Location Indonesië, Medan, Nederlands-Indië, Sumatra
Person names Romme, C.P.M.
Photographer Fotograaf Onbekend / DLC
Copyright Holder Nationaal Archief, CC0
Physical Description Negatief (zwart/wit)
Catalog reference number 2.24.04.03
Inventory File Number 146-1-2

[Ed Storey]

My Father has owned this British booklet Our Men in Korea since 1955 and because of all the CMPs, this photograph has always been my favourite.

Royal New Zealand Artillery Advance to New Positions Near the Front Line. copy.jpg

[chrisgrove]

Those Indian Pattern Wheeled Carriers from Korea are New Zealand LPOPs (not entirely sure what that stands for). Very similar to the wartime Indian ones but just slightly different. Driver hatch is nearer the centre of the vehicle for one.
Chris

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I came across this picture in the Dutch Army photo archive....no idea if it has been posted on the forum before, but better safe than sorry.

source: http://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/nl...d/pantserwagen

Dutch East Indies 1947.

Found the updated link to this photo:

Objectnummer: 2002-413-1
Titel: Verblijf en optreden van Stoottroepen Infanterie IV (voorheen 5(9) RS) in Nederlands-Indië.
Militairen van de 2e Compagnie in een Armoured Carrier Wheeled (Indian Pattern) Mk IV tijdens een konvooitransport van Medan naar Belawan.
Datering 1947-01
NIMH_2002-413-1.tjp.jpg
https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/f...6-9b9cdf5c2ff3

[Hanno Spoelstra]

And one more in use with the Netherlands East Indies Army:

Objectnummer: 2002-250-7
Titel: Verblijf en optreden van het 4e Bataljon Regiment Stoottroepen in Nederlands-Indië. Militairen en voertuigen stellen zich op in de Chinese wijk voor een parade.
Datering: 1949-11-07

NIMH_2002-250-7.tjp.jpg
https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/f...0-e83140ffc86e

[Ed Storey]

Here is a manual associated with this vehicle.

thumbnail_IMG_1998 copy.jpg

[Davistine Liddle]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Some pics of a NZ built Carrier, Indian Pattern, Wheeled. 76 of these were built by the NZ Railways and Ford NZ on rear engined Ford CMP chassis, and closely follow the Indian design. This is the only restored example and may be one of only 3 survivors.
It is in the markings of the 16th Field Regiment during it's service in Korea, where these vehicles were used as OP's.

Hello Tony

Here i found related pics kindly check

http://www.scoopoftidbits.com/travel...y-tank-museum/


Different links of same museum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cvAqyHp5eo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnz-E02TSx8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pKhG24Qv2M

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

From the article "India's Ford Wheeled Carriers" in Wheels & Tracks issue 42, we learn that various Marks of Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, Indian Pattern were based on the following chassis:

C011QRF:
- Mark II: originally with GM banjo-type axles and 9.00-16 tyres
- Mark IIA: when quantity production got underway Ford split type axles and 10.50-16 tyres were installed
- Mark IIB

C191QRF: wider axles (78") with 6" front steering ends, 15" diameter brake drums and brake booster, heavier springs, hydraulic clutch actuation, 10.50-20 RF tyres
- Mark IIC

Note: the Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, NZ Pattern was fitted on the C191QRF chassis as well

C291QR: rearranged driver’s position with centrally mounted near-vertical driver’s position
- Mark IV

Legend:
C - Canadian design;
0 - 1940 model year; 1 – 1941 model year; 2 – 1942 model year
1 - engine type; intention was to fit all Canadian Ford Special Pattern MV’s with the 85-bhp engine, hence the “1”. The 95-bhp engine was finally standardized but he “1” stuck until the models were changed for 1941 and the figure became “9” as it should have been.
1 - wheelbase (101");
Q - four-wheel drive;
R - rear mounted engine;
F – right hand drive.

Spare parts list for the 4x4 rear engine chassis. Note the lack of the “F” in the designation. (Via Les Jackson.)

8A5D94E7-4218-4C12-B03D-C2273FFE63B9.jpeg


Two more documents (via William Spence):

17CC0BDB-AE36-4BFB-B17B-72940E69C8C4.jpeg 05C6D133-1160-4441-921D-259DAAB3BF98.jpeg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Cross posting from Another Indian Pattern odd job: "C291QH 4x4 FAT for Royal Engineers" with three updated photos:

The Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, Indian Pattern Mk IV was based on the following chassis:

C291QR: rearranged driver’s position with centrally mounted near-vertical driver’s position

Legend:
C - Canadian design;
2 – 1942 model year
9 - 95-bhp engine
1 - wheelbase (101");
Q - four-wheel drive;
R - rear mounted engine.

138244639_10216177356020993_9104192035453410248_o.jpg 138610223_10216177353900940_8405141919765963550_o.jpg 138346272_10216177351420878_739722639827240169_o.jpg ND-127.jpg ND-128.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

More photos of a Wheeled Armoured Carrier in Netherlands Army service in the Netherlands East-Indies, ca. 1946.

NL-HaNA_2.24.04.03_0_2-3-1-klein.jpg NL-HaNA_2.24.04.03_0_2-3-2-klein.jpg
Source: http://hdl.handle.net/10648/5cc6fac7...a-e36d3becf2c8 | http://hdl.handle.net/10648/d15f9aae...5-2db9e348bd49