M38a1cdn

chris vickery · #1 22-01-11, 17:27

I was just wondering what series a 1970 M38A1 might be as I know there was a 1,2 and 3.

What is the average fair market value right now on a complete runner in decent shape?

Mike Baker · #2 22-01-11, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

I was just wondering what series a 1970 M38A1 might be as I know there was a 1,2 and 3.

What is the average fair market value right now on a complete runner in decent shape?

It'll be a CDN3.

Value is difficult to say without pictures, but I paid $3,500 for mine (running, but in need of new tires and brake system to be road-worthy), which had been sitting untouched in the back of a garage on Vancouver Island for 20 years.

Mike

chris vickery · #3 22-01-11, 19:05

Thanks Mike

I need another jeep like a hole in the head but found a potential deal on one, looks decent, asking $4000. Figured 3-4000 is around the current value...

maple_leaf_eh · #4 23-01-11, 18:02

I paid over $2000 for a driveway Queen that the seller absolutely had to get sold before the weekend. It has almost all its parts, but as the gentle souls here who have seen it will attest, it just needs a smarter mechanic on the back end of the tools.

There was a runner M38A1 sold privately here a few weeks ago. I think the seller sent it to the US.

Depending on what else comes with the purchase, $4000 might not be a bad price. Canvas top, doors, tarp support, door rods, straps, built-in winch, jerry can, small body fittings that come off with a screwdriver, radio IKEE components (tray, antenna base, cabling, etc), battery hold-down frames, etc ...

Wpns 421 · #5 23-01-11, 22:51

Last August we bought a 1967 M38 A1 Cdn it came with a 1954 trailer. We paid $7500.00 and it came with a few surprises. We repainted the jeep to the right(if there ever is a right)color and we will be rebuilding the fuel pump plus a tune up etc. If you get a good condition jeep for $4000 it is a good deal. Finding a good jeeps is getting rare or you are going to pay dearly for it. The Americans are buying all we have because this type of vehicle has been out of produxtion for 25-30 years and are becoming hard to find. In todays world if you want a jeep you pay for it. Gilles

sapper740 · #6 26-01-11, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

I was just wondering what series a 1970 M38A1 might be as I know there was a 1,2 and 3.

What is the average fair market value right now on a complete runner in decent shape?

Chris, I can tell you this much. We're experiencing exceptionally strong growth in Vietnam War reenacting here in the U.S. with an collateral rise in demand (and price) of vehicles, weapons and gear. What may seem dear this year will seem reasonable in two years and cheap in four. Case in point: I bought an M37B1 a year ago for $3,500.00 which I've since put another $3,000.00 into (excluding radios) and already I'm getting offers to buy in the 12's inspite of the recession. We're on the right side of the curve to buy right now.

Regards, Derek.

chris vickery · #7 31-01-11, 17:48

New M38A1 is now home!!!!

Got a recent decent deal on it. Has new tires, new batteries and even a full jerrycan!

Can someone out there tell me if the CFR# would be anywhere other than the top lh frame rail? This one is a bit of a mystery as it appears that there may have been some repair to this area, possibly scrubbing the cfr away by grinding although with copious amounts of paint there it may be hidden underneath. Further investigation is required.

It does carry a cfr on the hood and dash of 70-08669 which does exist in the database and does corelate to the VIN of 10071 as on the ownership. Did the CF ever use black lettering for this as this is what is on the jeep? The problem I am having here is that by all accounts it appears to be a Canadian M38A1 CDN3 but has brass American Marine Corps data tags that are old NOS but unstamped???? Possibly just a set someone threw on???

It has 10" brake drums, turn sigs, hot water heater, un hinged type grill etc but has wire mesh headlight guards, again maybe an addition? I thought these guards were typical of the 1952 era M38A1s? It does have holes in the grill for the bar type guards as well.

rob love · #8 31-01-11, 19:32

CFRs on the frame was a 50s thing. It wasn't on the 67/70 pattern jeeps. You would have to go by the vehicle's serial number to confirm the CFR. If the data plate on the dash is blank, then how about the one behind the passenger seat on the wheel well? If that is also missing, then you will have to go by the stencilled CFRs. There were no other serial numbers that I can recall on a Cdn3 other than those two locations.

Normally the dash would have been the white stickers. In later service, and once in the units, this could be replaced with anything from stencils to grease pencil. Often the white stickers were painted over. CFRs were not normally on the hoods of this era, so it could be something from it's post service life. Since most M38A1s were in militia use in the late 70s/early 80s, there was not a consistent marking scheme for them.

The grill type headlamp covers would likely be a civilian replacement. The single bar over each lamp is what should be there.

Mike Baker · #9 31-01-11, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

New M38A1 is now home!!!!

Can someone out there tell me if the CFR# would be anywhere other than the top lh frame rail?

The problem I am having here is that by all accounts it appears to be a Canadian M38A1 CDN3 but has brass American Marine Corps data tags that are old NOS but unstamped???? Possibly just a set someone threw on???

It has 10" brake drums, turn sigs, hot water heater, un hinged type grill etc but has wire mesh headlight guards, again maybe an addition? I thought these guards were typical of the 1952 era M38A1s? It does have holes in the grill for the bar type guards as well.

Chris,

Congratulations! Do you have any pics to post? I don't know of anywhere else where the CFR could be found, but the Army did stop stamping the frame rails at some point (the 1952 M-100 I briefly owned was stamped, my '67 CDN2 is not), so if yours is a CDN3 it will probably not be stamped.

The data plates are probably additions to replace the Canadian ones, which may have faded (the printed parts of mine are very faded).

10" drums definitely suggests CDN3, but some CDN2s were also upgraded with 10" brakes. Both CDN2s and 3s have turn signals (but US models didn't, so far as I am aware), the heater and the unhinged grill. The wire mesh is likely aftermarket, and the bar guards are something I am not sure about. Some seem to have had them, others don't (my CDN2 has neither guards nor holes for them).

My VIN on the registration (I think, because ICBC still won't let me register it - I am inferring from their letters to me) corresponds to the manufacturer's number on the data plate, and to a CFR in the database (67-07840).

Good luck!

Mike

rob love · #10 31-01-11, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Baker

10" drums definitely suggests CDN3, but some CDN2s were also upgraded with 10" brakes.

I have never seen a mod instruction or CFTO authorizing the change of the smaller brakes to the larger. In fact, if I recall, the rear backing plates would not even change across from a Cdn 3 to the earlier Cdn2 axle. It would have required the complete axle assembly to have been changed over, which would also require the different U bolts. I seem to recall a CFTO on that change over if required.

It may have just been that someone ordered in a wrong axle assembly for a Cdn2, or that axle assemblies had been salvaged from Cdn3 PCC'd jeeps. It could have been a problem if only a front axle had the larger brakes than a rear axle, as this could have resulted in over braking on the steering axle. The larger self actuating brakes were a marked improvement over those puny simple original brakes.

I would agree with your theory on the data plates. The earlier ones could have faded, or have been taken as a souvenir by someone. It was only recently that anyone was making replacement data plates for the Cdn Jeeps. With the few that are out there, it is a miracle that anyone has bothered to invest the money into such a product.

rob love · #11 31-01-11, 20:27

Just another quick post to detail some of the Cdn3 characteristics if you want to confirm the Jeep is a 70/71 year Cdn3. There should be the flat faced (no hubcap) rear one piece axles, and the larger brakes. As Mike mentioned, these can be swapped about to other years. Also look for a small 5" square plates boxing the frame over the front hangers of the rear springs. Also, the seat belt backing washers were square and welded to the body. On the earlier jeeps they were an add on, and used round backing washers. The body and frame were items that would not usually be swapped out or upgraded on earlier jeeps. As well, look for closed hood hinges, as opposed to the open hinges which would allow the hood to be removed when opened to a certain angle. Often, if you forgot to latch the hood on a Cdn2, the hood would fly open and out of the hinges, and bounce of the driver's head as punishment for the omission.

There were other minor differences between Cdn2 and Cdn3, but these are the ones that come to mind to provide quick ID of the Jeeps year.

Mike Baker · #12 02-02-11, 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love

I have never seen a mod instruction or CFTO authorizing the change of the smaller brakes to the larger. In fact, if I recall, the rear backing plates would not even change across from a Cdn 3 to the earlier Cdn2 axle. It would have required the complete axle assembly to have been changed over, which would also require the different U bolts. I seem to recall a CFTO on that change over if required.

My understanding was that the axles were changed on quite a few of the CDN2s, but I will defer to your experience, especially given that I was still in elementary school when my CDN2 was retired from the service. It still has the 9" drums.

Another question for my own benefit - the VMO history for my truck indicates that it served in Wainwright and then Chilliwack, which is where is was retired. No units are listed, and the maintenance was all done by the bases. However, my canvas top had "BCR" stencilled on it in white paint. BCR would be the BC Regiment, but what are the odds that my truck was actually used by them? Did militia units do their own maintenance back then, or would it make sense that the vehicle sat in Chilliwack most of the time?

Thanks.

Mike

chris vickery · #13 01-02-11, 00:21

Rob, futher to my last, can you confirm when the CF went from single colour OD to the black and green scheme as well as the changeover from coloured insignia to subdued black on green?

rob love · #14 01-02-11, 04:45

I don't have the exact changeover date, but I joined the reserves in 78, and the jeeps in the FGH already had several coats of paint by that point. The 5/4 tons came out in 76 and they too already had the cam pattern from the factory. The same cam pattern was used earlier but with white instead of one of the greens. Of the 30 M151A2s I bought, I only noticed the white pattern on one of them, so it was likely phased out by the mid 70s. As well, most of the 3/4 tons I saw had the white rather than the green.

There seemed to be a mix of the cam pattern with the white vs the solid semi gloss green depending on what unit the trucks were with. Comm squadrons in particular did not seem too quick to cam their vehicles.

Based on all this, I would guess at mid 70s for the change to 3 colors of green.

As to the colored tach signs, I believe they changed around the late 60s. Again, the comm squdrons seemed to keep their colored tach signs a lot longer. In fact the decals for the comm sqn tach signs were still available in the supply system not that many years ago.

Scott Bentley · #15 01-02-11, 15:07

Chris,

Little CFR update now that I have access to the better server:

Holding Unit History

As of 01-FEB-11

CFR No Departure Arrival HUIC Unit
08669* 06-May-83 04-Sep-79 0113* CFB Borden
08669* 04-Sep-79 01-Jan-70 0131* CFB LONDON
Modification History

As of 01-FEB-11

Modification History of CFR : 08669

Modification No Modification Complete Date Completed
30010000CF003* NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THIS MODIFICATION YES
30100000CF014* NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THIS MODIFICATION NO
30104000CF001* NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THIS MODIFICATION NO

Work Order Details

As of 01-FEB-11
CFR Number : 08669
Format Work Order Number SS Date Completed CIN HUIC Usage Qty Parts ($) Rebuild
5 L01086 29-Sep-78 551* 5009* 25814 1 0 NO
5 L05964 30-Nov-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO
5 L05460 29-Aug-77 551* 5009* 22529 1 325 NO
5 L03992 30-Jun-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO
5 L03182 14-Mar-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO
5 L02883 21-Feb-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO

Looking deep into the Maint records, it appears that this 38A1 actually belonged to 1 Hussars in London prior to going to Borden. Sadly, it appears much of the maint info was never entered, as i'm sure there was plenty more work and mods done to it prior to disposal. The disposal date was actually 9 Sept 88, so this made it one of the last to go to auction.

UPDATE: I bet these guys would be happy to see you turn it back into an Armd Recce Jeep that it most likely once was: http://www.firsthussars.ca/the-museum

Scotty

chris vickery · #16 01-02-11, 23:32

Scotty, thank you for the updates, any and all info is greatly appreciated.
Would I be correct in assuming a transfer to CFB Borden was likely the result of base closures in the late 80's? I believe CFB London saw closure around this time.
Armd recce sounds great, this is how it will apear, now require any and all info pertient to this unit. Perhaps some pics may be around of it in service!
Another interesting item is that I am wondering one of two things;
Either it was held in service until the last auction because
a) it was one of the better ones left or
b) it was one of the immobile scrap ones
Considering the shape it is in I am assuming (a) to be the case.

Scott Bentley · #17 01-02-11, 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Scotty, thank you for the updates, any and all info is greatly appreciated.
Would I be correct in assuming a transfer to CFB Borden was likely the result of base closures in the late 80's? I believe CFB London saw closure around this time.
Armd recce sounds great, this is how it will apear, now require any and all info pertient to this unit. Perhaps some pics may be around of it in service!

Chris,

I'm no expert, but I'd say it likely went to Borden to accrue some mileage. Others like Rob can chime in, but if things in the late 70s - 80s are anything like now, they swap vehicles around to level the "fleet mileage". In the case of yours, it only accumulated 25k miles in 10 years, so it was probably sent to Borden to give another a break.

I was hesitant to mention it earlier, bit I've seen the pictures of this one when it was for sale and my gut tells me the Signals Decal and the Hood Markings were all done post disposal auction (albeit the CFR seems dead on). In this case you've got some proven provenance for an Armd Recce Unit, so bring on the "G-Pig" mount and wire cutter and get her back to her original "weekend" glory. Enjoy.

Scotty

chris vickery · #18 09-02-11, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Chris,

Little CFR update now that I have access to the better server:

Holding Unit History

As of 01-FEB-11

CFR No Departure Arrival HUIC Unit
08669* 06-May-83 04-Sep-79 0113* CFB Borden
08669* 04-Sep-79 01-Jan-70 0131* CFB LONDON
Modification History

As of 01-FEB-11

Modification History of CFR : 08669

Modification No Modification Complete Date Completed
30010000CF003* NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THIS MODIFICATION YES
30100000CF014* NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THIS MODIFICATION NO
30104000CF001* NO INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON THIS MODIFICATION NO

Work Order Details

As of 01-FEB-11
CFR Number : 08669
Format Work Order Number SS Date Completed CIN HUIC Usage Qty Parts ($) Rebuild
5 L01086 29-Sep-78 551* 5009* 25814 1 0 NO
5 L05964 30-Nov-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO
5 L05460 29-Aug-77 551* 5009* 22529 1 325 NO
5 L03992 30-Jun-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO
5 L03182 14-Mar-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO
5 L02883 21-Feb-77 551* 2208* 0 1 0 NO

Looking deep into the Maint records, it appears that this 38A1 actually belonged to 1 Hussars in London prior to going to Borden. Sadly, it appears much of the maint info was never entered, as i'm sure there was plenty more work and mods done to it prior to disposal. The disposal date was actually 9 Sept 88, so this made it one of the last to go to auction.

UPDATE: I bet these guys would be happy to see you turn it back into an Armd Recce Jeep that it most likely once was: http://www.firsthussars.ca/the-museum

Scotty

I just recently aquired the used vehicle information package on this one and note a slight discrepancy from your data Scotty, wondering if you may shed some light on it. It appears that my jeep was registered on 3 June 1988 by the civilian owner.

Your records indicate disposal 9 Sept 88. Would it be possible that the disposal records take a bit of time to be updated before being struck off of service following auction???

Scott Bentley · #19 09-02-11, 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

I just recently aquired the used vehicle information package on this one and note a slight discrepancy from your data Scotty, wondering if you may shed some light on it. It appears that my jeep was registered on 3 June 1988 by the civilian owner.

Your records indicate disposal 9 Sept 88. Would it be possible that the disposal records take a bit of time to be updated before being struck off of service following auction???

Its not my data Chris

I wouldn't get too concerned about the disposal date. Things like date purchased, date disposed and price sold for, are often generic for a good chunk of the fleet. Almost all of the info on these things was entered in the EDR Database years after they were used and sold. It still amazes me that they even took the time to enter it after the fact, especially the maintenance and mod info. In the case of yours though, the info was very sparse compared to most.

chris vickery · #20 05-02-11, 19:22

Seeking Ansul extingusiher for my jeep. Is this the 5# type?

Barry Churcher · #21 05-02-11, 20:03

Hi Chris
When I was at Big Bad Bob's Barbeque last year I took this photo of an extinguisher mounted in an M38A1. According to the owner, some real old guy
named Jon,

this is the correct unit. Hope this helps.
Barry

maple_leaf_eh · #22 06-02-11, 04:26

The correct extinguisher looks like that, but the grab handle is a bit different. (Forgive me but I'm having an episode of Gulf War Syndrome and can't remember squat) - a local surplus dealer near Gunner Mike's place sometimes finds them in the surplus lots.

rob love · #23 06-02-11, 04:37

Good eye Terry, you are right. The DND ones have a stamped handle vice the cast handle on the red one.

Alex Blair (RIP) · #24 06-02-11, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love

Good eye Terry, you are right. The DND ones have a stamped handle vice the cast handle on the red one.

Rob..
The Ansul blue fire extinguisher had a bigger brother..Bob Carrier has the next size up from the one shown..It is dry chem with a nitrogen cartridge that is pierced when the pin is removed and the handle slammed down which charges the extinguisher..The content tend to lump and compress so should be turned upside down and hit with a rubber hammer to loosen up the contents..
Bob may be able to post a picture..
It is a military 25 pounders used on Canadian Air Force runway crash trucks..
This one fell off one that I was following across the grassy area of the runway.. in Edmonton..and I stopped and picked it up but they didn't want it back so it stayed with me from '76 til I donated it to the barn boys to protect them from Lucifer...
In a pinch..
It is identical but bigger than the one shown.