Looking for Canadian M151A2 Pictures....

[Scott Bentley]

Hello everyone,

I'm soon going to be starting a Restoration of a Canadian 1974 M151A2.

I'm looking for old photos of these "things" while they were in service to help me settle on Paint and Configuration. I rarely saw any photos of them in my Units' archives (2 CER) as we used the M38A1 during the same time frame, so its tricky getting started.

I will most likely use 22 Fd Engr Sqn (Independent) CME as the Unit for actually marking the 74 Pattern, as it was a Unit I have served in (4 ESR during my time) that had previously used M151A2s, but I would love to see some others for their Paint Schemes, Comms Installations etc. For what its worth, i'm aiming at setting it up as a Sqn Sgt Majors' vehicle (more coffee pots than radios)

If there is anyone out there that has photos of a correct Canadian Resto that would be appreciated as well.

Any other tidbits would be very handy for me.

my e-mail

Thank you

Scotty B

[rob love]

Origionally the M151A2s were issued in the semi gloss US olive green. The cam patterns were later applied at the unit levels. The levels of proffesionalis of the paint ranged from spray guns to 4" paint brushes.

The cam pattern was the same as that detailed for the M38A1s. In fact, if you look at the cam diagram, the line drawing of the jeep is more of an M38 than any other 1/4 ton.

There may be photos out there of M151s in cam patterns ranging from slightly different to totally different, but the regs were that the pattern was that detailed in the manual of cam and concealment, and the same cam patterns could also be found in the FMCOs.

I'll dig out my Jeep cam pattern tomorrow and post it.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

When Canada bought the M151A2 MUTT, they came without a roll cage. Canada later added roll cages that differed from the US ROPS (Roll Over Protection) kit which also had the web netting on the sides.

Usually the vehicles were plain green until about 1970, then the multicolour camouflage was introduced and the markings changed to the subdued style. I have the official camo painting and marking instructions.

You will see pictures of white painted MUTTs in the desert (see link below) but these are earlier flat fender M151 supplied by US to UN and not Canadian purchases (as far as is known).

Some MUTTs were used by Canadians in Vietnam in 1974 with ICCS. These were dark in colour and had a big stripe painted across the hood. I suspect they were supplied "in country" as the US vets would say.

So your basic choice is PERIOD, LOCATION and UNIT.

If you find any markings on your MUTT, RECORD THEM !!!!!!! Even if you chose to paint it to represent another unit of your choice, these markings are usually the ONLY record of the history of vehicle.

Look for the CFR number. It is the KEY identity to your vehicle.

http://www.geocities.com/fordm151/m151cdn.htm

[A good and interesting site but it perpetuates the myth that calls the M151A2 MUTT a "jeep". It is NOT a jeep even though the Canadian Forces and its soldiers often called it a jeep. The MUTT was an independent design that simply resembles a jeep in size and 4x4 but it is not part of the jeep family.

[rob love]

If you are going to restore it to factory issue, you would also not have the heater kit in it. Those were installed at the various 2nd line base maintenance workshops after the trucks were brought into Canada.

[Scott Bentley]

Thanks for the replies..

My focus is on returning the "74 Pattern" to "In Service" configuration for the mid 80's in Canada, prior to replacement by the Iltis, when one could argue all of the TB Mods and Improvements would have been completed.

My other reason for choosing 22 Fd Sqn (Aside from being a Sapper myself) is that this A2 originated in Gagetown NB prior to disposal. If they VMO'd SMP Vehicles between Units in the 80's like we do now, its entirely possible that it may have served in 22 Fd Sqn. I'm praying i'll find a Lazy E under that paint somewhere

The 74 A2 is actually Mike McKinleys, which i'm in the process of acquiring. Mike has done a tremendous job gathering all sorts of info on this A2 as well the 74 Pattern in general. The history of this A2 is well preserved.

I am also acquiring a second 74 A2 from Alberta that will become the Tub donor for the project. It is clearly marked as the DCO's Vehicle from 1 SVC BN. Unfortunately, it is a mechanical basket case, but has a nice rust free, albeit cut Tub. I have saved it from what would have most likely become a low budget ATV for a hunter.

My questions concerning paint are pointed at whether or not these would have been painted with CARC Paint at some point prior to withdrawal from service, and what the "Approved" cam pattern would have been. If not in the CARC Paint, what are the 3 Colors and Paint Type that would have made up the Cam Pattern? Also, many of the Canadian A2's i've seen have a much lighter color Green in the Interior that is different from the exterior colors. I've attached a pic below? Is this a Depot applied paint color, or something that was done at the Unit? It apears to be similar to what we have inside most Armoured Vehicles and CP Boxes currently in service.

My other concern is locating and placement of Stencils, Decals and Stickers under the Bonnet and on the Dash, that would have been somewhat generic to the Vehicle.

If I understand correctly, the TAC Signs and C/S Stenciling styles should be relatively unchanged from what we use now.

When it comes to painting Vehicles and the CF I am amazed and disappointed. Whenever I worked around US Units, I always appreciated how their equipment more often than not, sported fresh paint done "professionally". Other than when receiving a vehicle out of the Depot or back from Refurb, we often resorted to touching up ours with whatever we could find in the paint locker that was purchased locally, and in colors not specifically for the military.

Thanks again.

Scotty

[Ed Storey]

Here are a couple of images from my collection, I have dozens of images of M151A2s that I took during the 1970s and 1980s. I am not sure if 22 Fd Sqn used the M151A2 as not every unit in the CF had them and to complicate matters not every unit within a brigade was using the same 'Jeep'. For example, within Engineer regiments, I know that 2CER in Petawawa did not have the M151A2, but 5RGC did. Even within the SSF, 2 Fd Amb used the M151A2, but 8CH did not.

[Scott Bentley]

Thanks very much for the photos Ed.

If you can spare the time to upload or e-mail some more that would be fantastic.

I'm surprised how difficult it is to find snaps of these. I never had a chance to look in the museum in Petawawa before I left. I have a few contacts up that way that i'm going to try and contact.

The one MUTT has very clear markings, but I can't lower myself to keeping it marked with Hollywood Bde Svc Bn Markings

The other (Mikes) from Gagetown could have been with 8 CH, W Battery, 2 RCR or 22 Fd Sqn. I'll have to ask if he was able to narrow it down.

Hopefully 22 Fd Sqn did in fact use 151's.

Were M151A2s' used in CFE?

[mike mckinley]

the 151 in the second picture must have taken a hell of a smash..notice the bend in the drivers side fender..looks like the whole front is bent upwards

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Here are a couple of images from my collection, I have dozens of images of M151A2s that I took during the 1970s and 1980s.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens

http://www.geocities.com/fordm151/m151cdn.htm

A good and interesting site

Colin, thanks for the compliment, and for you help. When I initially published that web page some 6 years ago -with help from the very same people contributing here - very little seemed to be known about the "74 pattern jeep" in Canadian service (at least to me!). I'm glad this and other forums have yielded more information and photos.

Originally Posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens

but it perpetuates the myth that calls the M151A2 MUTT a "jeep". It is NOT a jeep even though the Canadian Forces and its soldiers often called it a jeep. The MUTT was an independent design that simply resembles a jeep in size and 4x4 but it is not part of the jeep family.

You are aware that years before the Bantam/Willys quarter ton truck was named jeep, or let alone Willys trademarking "Jeep", this nickname was applied to utility vehicles being able to do things deemed impossible. Therefore I chose to use the use the nickname jeep, just like many soldiers have and will do, when referring to a small 4WD vehicle. This has nothing to do with the use of the "Jeep" trademark - I´m sure you´ll agree today´s Jeep is much further away from the WW2 jeep than the M151-series. . . .

Best regards,
Hanno

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Colin, thanks for the compliment, and for you help. When I initially published that web page some 6 years ago -with help from the very same people contributing here - very little seemed to be known about the "74 pattern jeep" in Canadian service (at least to me!). I'm glad this and other forums have yielded more information and photos.



You are aware that years before the Bantam/Willys quarter ton truck was named jeep, or let alone Willys trademarking "Jeep", this nickname was applied to utility vehicles being able to do things deemed impossible. Therefore I chose to use the use the nickname jeep, just like many soldiers have and will do, when referring to a small 4WD vehicle. This has nothing to do with the use of the "Jeep" trademark - I´m sure you´ll agree today´s Jeep is much further away from the WW2 jeep than the M151-series. . . .

Best regards,
Hanno

It was more than just soldiers who referred to any small utility vehicle as a Jeep. The Iltis was constantly referred to as "Iltis Jeep" in official documents from the Life Cycle managers in Ottawa. I never minded that the M151s were referred to as Jeep, but the Iltis thing kind of irked me. They certainly did not have my favorite characteristic of the Jeep: simplicity.

[Scott Bentley]

Wow....

Thank you for all of the replies. The response is nothing short of incredible. After a 15 year hiatus from MV's, its nice to come back and see so many people supporting it.

Where I do I submit a donation to keep the server from going offline

The collection of pictures is a massive help. From what I have seen so far in a couple of dozen photos, is that almost no two are exactly the same when it comes to paint, markings etc. I'd imagine at the Unit level there was some standard, but outside of that, its a mixed bag.

With regards to Mikes A2, the source for my resto, i'm going to go ahead with my plan for 22 Fd Sqn marking. If I can find anything under the paint relating to CFE, I may go that route. At the end of the Day, a Sapper is going drive a Sappers Vehicle i'm sure the retired CF members around here can understand that.

Mike and I discussed at length the number of these that were painted in the 2 Color, Black and Green Cam Pattern. My goal is to project this little rig in the most likely state it would have been in, so this may be the route i'll go.

Rob, much appreciated the info on paint. Wasn't sure about the CARC, I started in the early 90s, so I wasn't entirely sure when it came into existence. Your right about the issues with handling it, no change there even today. When I first joined we wondered what it meant and why it was stenciled on everything.

Hanno, I may approach you for assistance on getting the CFR once I have more info.

My goal is to ensure that everything that goes back into this unit originally came throught the CF supply system where at all possible. So if your sitting on A2 parts, I may be dropping you a line

Whats the best route for getting this back to bare metal? Would it be too risky to sandblast it?

Thanks again

Scotty B

[rob love]

Sandblasting has it's advantages and disadvantages. It will certainly find the weaknesses in the body: ie rust. Thats a good thing. Once sandblasted, the metal is ready to patch. But don't leave the metal bare for more than a day or two or it will start to rust.

The biggest problem with sandblasting it that you will strip bare areas where you can't get the paint back into. Underneath the vehicle, you will also remove what little Zeibart remains.

Regarding the "unit level" standards, the standards were actually dictated both in the FMC standing orders, and later in the Brigade standing orders. Units were supposed to follow these guidlelines, but of course, with the long chains of commands, they could get distorted on the way down.

I know in the last unit I was in, I ordered a few hundred of the red Canada Flags to install on our vehicles as per the Brigade orders. The installation was nixed by slightly higher up (MWO) who felt the red was not a desirable colour on the cammed vehicles.

I would strongly recommend using the cam pattern as shown and attempting to get the 3 colours as close as possible. Any "2 colour" cam jobs were simply a failure in the chain at either getting the proper information or paint to the users level. I have also seen a few pieces in museums where the restorer's just painted away, without researching the proper paint schemes. It does the history of the vehicles a dis-service IMHO.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Thank you for all of the replies. The response is nothing short of incredible. After a 15 year hiatus from MV's, its nice to come back and see so many people supporting it.

Where I do I submit a donation to keep the server from going offline

See Support Maple Leaf Up!, that is, if you weren´t joking

Hanno, I may approach you for assistance on getting the CFR once I have more info.

Sure, but I don't think I can add anymore than noted on my web page. Most if not all info on CFR's was provided by Rob Love.

Regards,
Hanno
http://www.geocities.com/fordm151/

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Mike and I discussed at length the number of these that were painted in the 2 Color, Black and Green Cam Pattern. My goal is to project this little rig in the most likely state it would have been in, so this may be the route i'll go.

Here's an example (click on the picture for a large size image):



As Rob pointed out, this must be an example of the 3-colour camouflage pattern being distorted in the chain of command to a 2-colour cam job. Anyway, it gives you a good idea of the M151A2 in Canadian service and is copied here form Verlinden's book as a soure of inspiration. I have looked high and low, but I could not find other pics of M151A2's in Canadian service than those shown here (or in the links).

Regards,
Hanno

Originally Posted by rob love

I would strongly recommend using the cam pattern as shown and attempting to get the 3 colours as close as possible. Any "2 colour" cam jobs were simply a failure in the chain at either getting the proper information or paint to the users level. I have also seen a few pieces in museums where the restorer's just painted away, without researching the proper paint schemes. It does the history of the vehicles a dis-service IMHO.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

I'm soon going to be starting a Restoration of a Canadian 1974 M151A2.

Hi Scotty, good to hear you will be restoring an original Canadian M151A2 back to Canadian specs. There are far too few of these out there! I was going to post a link to my site, but I see others have posted new material already.

Best of luck with your resto, I hope you finish what Mike started, and share the result with us!

Thanks,
Hanno