ontario mounting rules

[machelko]

Does anyone know the official rules and regulations for mounting and displaying deactivated firearms on historical military vehicles in Ontario. My understanding is that once a gun has been deactivated it is no longer considered a firearm and basically just a piece of metal and wood. I also thought that because they have been deactivated properly, they aren't considered replicas or movie props. Any insight would be great for us that want to mount such items on parade vehicles.

[rob love]

Once deactivated, they are no longer subject to the safe storage, transportation or display regulations.

However, just like a bar of soap carved into the shape of a firearm, or a finger pointed inside a jacket, they will still be considered a firearm if used in a threatening way, so don't let the kids track people walking with the 50 cal. Safe firearms handling (no pointing at people, finger off the trigger etc) Should still be instilled into people wanting to handle the dewats.

Another point is that in this day of socially programmed "bad scary guns" hysteria, there are those who will report their observation of "machine guns" while you are loading them onto your jeep on your driveway. Most police policies are to seize all the firearms (real or not) and let the crown attorney sort it out. Reasonable discretion should apply.

[Seatyger]

Considering where your located I would heed the advise provided by Rob. During an appropriate Function, ceremony or parade etc., or even a Car Show as a static display you would be hard pressed to arouse any kind of 'Interest' of an official nature.

There are however numerous locals pushing the envelope with respect to what is and what isnt a legal obligation/responsibility. Be it Free Men of the Land who dont believe in Drivers Licences, Vehicle plates Blah blah blah who incidently are quite active in SW Ontario.

Perception is everything, and there are enough fruitcakes who would be more than happy to describe to an officer how the 'Army type vehicle with the machinegun {INSERT REASON} cut me off, was driving in a threatening and aggressive manner towards me, was..... laughing and drinking coffee while making eye contact etc.

Basically that is enough to become an item of interest and begin the BS process of having to explain yourself and what your all about. If your articulate enough in your explanation you'll likely be fine.

However, if your not an accomplished and confident speaker you run the risk of having the non-gun seized in the interest of 'Public Safety' and having to explain why you felt the need to attend the Sobey's parking lot with a life like machinegun mounted and in full view to the shoppers present. (Example mine)

After a couple hours in Court and around 5,000. in legal fees you may get the item back but you would certainly be criticized for poor judgement by the 'System' and probably Bad Taste by your peers.

Having said that; Are the gun laws and current firearms regulations ineffective, intrusive and basically stupid? Absolutely. But bringing that kind of attention to yourself as an individual could be a disasterous experience.

If you were to 'Convoy' up for a road trip with a couple to half dozen or more vehicles and enthusiasts and stay to more rural areas I would think you would be fine. If you were stopped it would likely be by someone like myself who is genuinely curious and interested in your equipment and its history.

Sorry for the long winded response, but I have dealt with many people who have acted without thinking it through so to speak. No malicious intent, nor devious behaviour they simply never anticipated the reactions of others.

You will likely get a few who will tell you 'Screw them, they can't do that because........' and in the end, after a couple of expensive years it may very well be. But you are the one who will have to endure the stress and financial hardship to prove 'Them' right.

Oh and PS: Just because it may no longer be technically considered a Firearm does not mean that it cannot be preceived as a Weapon. Something else to keep in the back of your mind. (Its like falling into a legal Black Hole) If your going to drive through the City I would suggest-

Stay away from, Military Bases, facilities, and Property, all Federal and Provincial Government facilities, School and Educational buildings of all types and/or configurations, Hospitals, City Hall, Police Buildings, Tim Hortons Drive Thru Lanes, Power Generating facilities.................... Now I'm just being a smart a$$ but you get the picture

[Hans Mulder]

As previously mentioned, once deactivated, not a firearms. Display all you like...in my experience, you are more likely to be pulled over because the officer wants to know what exactly the green thing is that you are driving, than because they have any concerns. I wouldn't worry in the least.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hans Mulder

As previously mentioned, once deactivated, not a firearms. Display all you like...in my experience, you are more likely to be pulled over because the officer wants to know what exactly the green thing is that you are driving, than because they have any concerns. I wouldn't worry in the least.

Wrong answer. Advice provided earlier is the best course. You may be right, you may be within the law, it may even be a 'no brainer' to you because you know the intricacies of the law, but to the avergae bystander it is a 'machine gun' and you aren't allowed to own it.
Most police officers don't know the detail of the gun laws and will seize it first and find out later -and their bosses will support the decision as will the Crown prosecutor and the judge (as he grudgingly agrees that you can have the dewat back). Meanwhile, it costs you time and money because you wanted to show everyone that you were 'right'.
If you can, transport the 'toys' as cargo and install once you are in place.
Oh, and to add to Seatyger's list of destinations NOT to go to with your MG openly displayed is Parliament Hill - 'nuff said.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by servicepub

Wrong answer. Advice provided earlier is the best course. You may be right, you may be within the law, it may even be a 'no brainer' to you because you know the intricacies of the law, but to the avergae bystander it is a 'machine gun' and you aren't allowed to own it.
Most police officers don't know the detail of the gun laws and will seize it first and find out later -and their bosses will support the decision as will the Crown prosecutor and the judge (as he grudgingly agrees that you can have the dewat back). Meanwhile, it costs you time and money because you wanted to show everyone that you were 'right'.
If you can, transport the 'toys' as cargo and install once you are in place.
Oh, and to add to Seatyger's list of destinations NOT to go to with your MG openly displayed is Parliament Hill - 'nuff said.

I agree 100%. What your 'rights' are and what you should do to avoid a whack of trouble for yourself, the rest of us and the hobby in general are two different things. The best policy is to keep the dewats under cover unless it's a sanctioned event. A silly incident brandishing a 'machine gun' on a jeep going to the shopping plaza could create such a fuss that it would impact us all in a very bad way. Hell, a camera tripod coming out of a car trunk recently closed down York University.

Dewats, in my opinion, are a privilege we should not abuse. Replicas are illegal in Canada and it wouldn't take much to get deactivated firearms banned as well if something silly happened.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by machelko

Does anyone know the official rules and regulations for mounting and displaying deactivated firearms on historical military vehicles in Ontario. My understanding is that once a gun has been deactivated it is no longer considered a firearm and basically just a piece of metal and wood. I also thought that because they have been deactivated properly, they aren't considered replicas or movie props. Any insight would be great for us that want to mount such items on parade vehicles.

Interesting how the thread diverged from a question to a vehement agreement between likeminded fellows.

I was advised by the local OMVA leader that any deactivated firearms have to be treated like live firearms in public. That is to say, nothing left unattended or unlocked. That prevents simple theft. When the owner has to lug a rifle or smg or lmg on the shoulder all day long, the thrill of ownership loses some of its lustre.

My M38A1 has the GPMG base and mount, and I want a display visual imitation for rebuild accuracy. There is no way I can justify (pfft!) a dewat M1919. Perversely the laws about "replica" firearms complicate the effort. Something black and heavy with a hand-shaped on the back end, a rectangular rear block and a holed tube front end, might be all I can get away with.

FWIW, in the late '70s and early '80s we had zippered canvas covers for our GPMGs. There is legal jurisprudance that a rifle in a rifle case can't be considered a concealed firearm. So there is a hide in plain sight might be a legally defensible option for displaying dewat firearms.

[Harry Moon]

I agree that when and where is very important. I've done a lot of displays at a lot of different venues both with and for either our Arms collectors Society or our MV club. Whenever firearms be they Live, dewat or replica I recomend dropping a line to the local constabulary via public events liason, a heads up courtesy call, and depending on the curcumctances nieghbors and local bussiness prevents as well, this helps prevent trouble. We have the right to do things but quite frankley In most cases we are middle class white guys who would have to pay for our own lawyers up against some lieberal who is working on our unlimited tax dollars.
Now I know the discussion has been about Dewats on Mv's but I have also been involved in demo's with blanks and events at ranges and despite a lot of planning and preperation things can still go wrong and generate adverse reactions. Something about putting the Pacific fleet and a number of Japanese Warships on alert should be considered an adverse reaction to be avoided

[Seatyger]

Machelko- Please don't misinterpret anything I have posted as a poke at you. You have actually raised a very legitimate question. I believe it is important that the Whole of the MV Community becomes educated and aware.

The collective knowledge of the Members of this Forum is staggering. However, like many things, before you get an answer; the question has to be asked.

The responses so far have been interesting to say the least.

[machelko]

I appreciate all of the input and info. Being somewhat new to the MVP, it is always good to hear many different types of feedbacks from personal experiences.
As I had pretty much decided before I started this thread, it is best to play it smart with whatever you do regarding MV and dewats. As I had mentioned in the beginning, we are talking about parades and shows, not shopping at the supermall, or cruising the strip for chicks.
My understanding with most historical firearms, they had the options of hard cases and boxes, or canvas covers. To me, that seems like an easy fix. Out of sight, out of mind. Perhaps if its mounted ontop of a jeep, but with the matching canvas cover, might be OK when driving to destination. Also, getting to know your local authorities is a good thing. When they understand what you have, and have seen it, sometimes they don't mind you dropping their name if you get in a bind elsewhere. Providing your not breaking rules.
In the end, we are trying to preserve the history, not have it confiscated and melted to make cheap wrenches.

[machelko]

Hello gentlemen

Recieved this info direct from RCMP, may help a bit.
Dan

** High Priority **
Thank you for your correspondence.

Firearms are exempt from the requirements of the Firearms Act if theRegistrar of Firearms is satisfied that the firearms have been madeincapable of discharging projectiles that can cause serious injury ordeath and therefore, no longer meet the definition of a firearm.

The Registrar has developed new guidelines to ensure that firearms aresufficiently modified to be exempt from the definition of a firearm.Businesses and individuals whose firearms have been deactivatedaccording to the guidelines are protected from criminal liability forpossessing those firearms without a valid licence or registrationcertificate.

The regulations pertaining to the safe storage and transportation offirearms do not apply to firearms that have been deregistered due todeactivation. It remains important, however, to store and transport themsafely to deter loss or theft.

If we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us bye-mail or call our office at 1-800-731-4000.

Thank you.
Richard, FSD Communications
RCMP Canadian Firearms Program
1-800-731-4000www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp