Bombardier ILTIS

[Marc Montgomery]

Just wondering about the numbers of preserved/licensed Iltis are left in Canada

There were only a couple thousand made to begin with...a very small production run by vehicle standards. Although many parts are taken from VW AUDI car models, many other parts are Iltis specific. The vinyl roof for example is already rare, and likely to be a big restoration issue in the near future.

Because of the tiny numbers, it is almost certain that no reproduction companies will make parts-a la MB-GPW for example.

Of the original number...many were wrecked in theatre- the Iltis graveyard in Afghanistan for example (Convoy Mag #27) shows at the very least several dozen wrecks. Of course others would have been wrecked or left behind in Bosnia-Rwanda and elsewhere

Then of course many would have been wrecked in Canada.. Im guessing an attrition rate of about 50% by the time of release..

So about 1000 released across Canada? Of that number, a couple hundred at least would be suitable for parts only..say 700 serviceable vehicles (???) of that number, about half would have been picked up by collectors.. The rest bought for rough treatment by offroaders and unlikely to be preserved. or even survive long. Youtube images will likely attract other offroaders to purchase preservable Iltis when they come up for sale...thereby losing a portion of remaining restorable vehicles

All in all, Im guessing (total guess) about 300 or so Iltis preserved-restored and licensed across Canada..

Any thoughts on this (completely arbitrary) guesstimate?

[rob love]

I would suggest that your estimates on the numbers released would be low. As bad as those gaveyard shots may look, I would venture to guess they only amount to batches of a few dozens of vehicles. And with regard to accident victims here in Canada, they have to be very bad to get condemned. The repair of most vehicles in Cdn service is governed by the REL (repair expenditure limits). However, owing to the impossibility of going out to buy Cdn SMPs off the shelf to replace damaged vehicles, the RELs are usually waived by the LCMMs and the vehicles are repaired.

There were 2500 Iltis procured for the CF. I was in Cypress in 89 when we replaced the Iltis there with Pajeros. The Iltis were suffering badly from their in theater experiences, especially with frame and body cracking. I expected a later roto to have the job of cutting them up, but surprisingly these Iltis surfaced a year or two later in Shilo to be mixed and matched and rebuilt into serviceable vehicles, and issued to various units or to log stocks.

As to the quantities restored, like so many recently surplussed vehicles, they are often considered as non-important until later, when the available quantities get low. I doubt you would find 300 of any Cdn military vehicle fully restored in Canada. In the case of the Iltis, any still fully in mlitary livery are likely that way because it's the easiest.

[Scott Bentley]

I think another factor is the length of time they were in service... Nearly 20 years in some cases. Depending on where it came from, like out east for example, they were already having serious rust issues prior to disposal. Many are out there, but some are downright ugly.

The spare parts availability issue is something I think has really been downplayed. I hear some guys talk like there are scads and scads of Iltis bits floating around. Maybe this is true, but with the cannibalization authority in effect long before they went out of the system, I have my doubts as to how huge the spare parts supply really is. Sure, there are huge quantities of some things available, but its usually the stuff you wouldn't worry about anyway. Personally, if it were me, i'd be stockpiling the consumables now while the gettin is good. With decent running examples of the Iltis already demanding stratospheric prices ($5K seems to be the norm now for an Iltis, and yet I managed to get almost 3 MUTTs for that price with a bit of hunting), i'd imagine spare parts prices will climb accordingly. I'm sure Rob Love could educate the Iltis Folks on what exactly is known to croak and the list isn't exactly short.

Not to go pimping my M151A2 again , but that is the one nice thing about a having a vehicle that the fleet was demilled and only a few dozen are actually still alive. There is literally a mountain of spare parts floating around that will surely outlast the worlds oil supply.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Rob loaned me some of the project reports for the Iltis program and I was surprised to see that DND policy was to ALWYS drive the vehicle in four-wheel drive (the sole policy exceptin was when manoevering on a hard surface and sharp turns - such as a parking lot). The report states that this is better for the vehicle and does NOT result in additional wear and tear or in increased fuel useage.

[rob love]

The full time use of 4 wheel drive was considered a safety aspect, and any wear was the price of that safety. If tires were properly inflated, the scuffing and drive train wrap up would be minimal.

I do recall having to change more than the usual number of axles for wear on the RPs Iltis. It would have been subject to tight parking conditions on hard pavement.

I must say that whichever civilian figured out what to repair on the TCI boxes likely saved a lot of civilian Iltis from extinction. That was one item that was costly, and failed with regularity. Another was the turn signal flasher, especially when coupled with an old M100 with frayed wiring. I think a guy would have to do a bit of engineering to fit in a normal cost flasher.

I know what you mean about the low cost of Mutt parts Scotty. I had one for years, and the MV dealers in the US almost gave away the mutt stuff. I also had the residue from over 2 dozen M151s which made sourcing spares quite easy.

[Marc Montgomery]

this full-time 4wd issue has caused some debate in the Iltis community. And regardless of the DND claims, I personlly would NEVER drive on the street in 4wd (and don't), simply due to the excess wear on the driveline components and tyres. --especially as concerns wrap-up,...and it would increase fuel consumption.

I left mine accidently in 4wd once shortly after I got it and drove it just around the block and into the driveway and the wrap-up and resistance was immediately evident

second the idea of safety- ie improved grip on the street or highway road surface- especially in wet or otherwise slippery conditions.. is a myth, and in this false sense of security is why so many 4x4 Jeep and SUV owners end up in the ditch in winter

4x4 essentially improves traction (ie forward pulling) only. It does not change or improve resistance to lateral forces, or improve braking, both of which are more a function of the tyre grip on the road surface . It might marginally help in a sideways skid IF you know what you're doing, which 95% of people dont. So the idea of safety in 4wd ion streets and highways, is -IMHO - a myth (also shown on a couple of car TV shows)

Note: the abilities of recent very hi-tech car systems with their various highly computerized AWD systems combined with various types of viscous couplings, along with other skid control/traction technologies etc etc etc, should not be confused with the relatively simplistic 4x4 system of the Iltis

BUT-that aside, any thoughts on how many licensed-Iltis (still in military livery) do you think exist in Canada?